The frontier labs were already burning money on more expensive price models, and competition wouldn't have reduced their capex proportionately.
[–] kshacker 4 days ago
[–] stingraycharles 4 days ago
[–] kshacker 4 days ago
Their data from September is leaked via IPO preview, and October is not yet complete, so how can someone even project that?
// I am a techie, not a finance guy, so apart from public chatter, no inside knowledge.
And I do feel their IPO is being rushed before anyone has enough information to make up their mind. The VCs or private equity have given them a lot of money and want to cash out. When the revenue does slow down, any investor should pause to take a look at whether they can right the ship, or has the landscape itself changed.
[–] eeedda 4 days ago
Their revenue taps, product releases and marketing campaigns were all strategic: to be able to show nice numbers in the financials.
Once they stop playing games with quality of output of these models and revenue's shrink - they will be in deep deep trouble. They are hoping they will conjure up a break through with the IPO proceeds.
Let's see.
[–] flowerthoughts 4 days ago
https://techstartups.com/2026/10/15/anthropics-q3-revenue-hi...
[–] Gareth321 4 days ago
[–] InsidiousWombat 3 days ago
[–] psd1 4 days ago
[–] Gareth321 4 days ago
Where this bubble differs from the dot-com bubble is that valuations have very strong, organic user demand behind them. In 1999, prototype websites with few customers were getting IPOs worth hundreds of millions. This time, demand is insatiable. Frontier mdoels also has very low global penetration, relatively speaking, so the TAM permits exponentially more sales, in theory.
However the risks are numerous for these labs. Foremost is that Chinese labs are able to easily distill frontier models. A tiny fraction of the cost of training, and they have a close approximation. Second, models are getting much more efficient per task. Companies are already discovering what "good enough" looks like, and it often ends up being much cheaper than what Anthropic and OpenAI are selling. This will only accelerate.
My investment thesis is bullish on the entire AI stack except the frontier labs. I think power generation is going to see huge demand. Ditto for infrastructure and data centers. Ditto for the products and services created by these models.
[–] _heimdall 4 days ago
Edit: Data because silent down votes are useless, Anthropic Q2 2026 grew 147% while Q3 grew 45%
[–] eeedda 4 days ago
Gross margins here are irrelevant: if they can't charge a high enough price to cover all expenditures and rely on cash raised via fund-raises, they are not financially healthy.
Could they be one day? Maybe.
[–] _heimdall 4 days ago
Yes they do need to grow margins to cover expenses, eventually when Amazon had to turn a profit.
My point was only that the numbers we do know clearly show a drop in growth rate of revenue, I can't judge numbers that aren't publicly known.
[–] TacticalCoder 4 days ago
If we assume it's due to competition, then their usage has precisely not plummeted because they cut prices by 80%.
[–] otabdeveloper4 4 days ago
They are too big to implode.
[–] p0nce 4 days ago
[–] smallmancontrov 4 days ago
[–] bunderbunder 4 days ago
This is comparable to how, if I sign a 12 month non-cancelable lease and then don’t pay the rent, I will be in debt to my landlord.
[–] freakynit 4 days ago
[–] _heimdall 4 days ago
[–] smallmancontrov 4 days ago
Here's another one: pay a supplier to cripple their deployment. Suddenly it's the neocloud's fault for failing to deliver, not your fault for failing to pay.
Did we all forget how Sam Altman turned a non-profit into a for-profit? Do we think he'll bring less sociopathy to this battle?
[–] haldujai 4 days ago
Their war chest is not sufficiently larger than the hyperscalers, Broadcom or PE financiers like BlackRock.
> The rules are different at this scale, and "you can't enforce a contract if the attempt will bankrupt you" is only one of the possible games.
Rather, the inverse of what you said and far less Machiavellian.
It is legally well established that take-or-pay contracts are unenforceable if it would bankrupt the buyer which is the more likely resolution in this case. However, this does not mean frontier labs just get to walk away. They would settle in court for a penalty that is less than the full contract price.
See: AMD/global foundries and pretty much every oil and gas or commodity deal that goes bust when market pricing makes extraction unfeasible.
[–] smallmancontrov 3 days ago
That's not the metric. The legal system is pay-for-delay, not pay-to-win. Once you have enough money to delay, it becomes a contest of who has the longer runway, and that probably goes to the frontier labs rather than the neoclouds who have little alternative revenue and comparatively airtight debt obligations.
> take-or-pay contracts are unenforceable if it would bankrupt the buyer which is the more likely resolution in this case. However, this does not mean frontier labs just get to walk away. They would settle in court for a penalty
Regardless, the terms come down to positioning and bargaining power. Runway vs obligations. This seems to dramatically favor the labs.
[–] haldujai 3 days ago
Which is what I said - frontier labs do not have a sufficiently larger war chest.
Respectfully, comparing the balance sheets of a frontier lab to Blackrock, Apollo, Softbank or Nvidia is laughable.
The neocloud will also easily rent out that unused compute and keep funding their war chest via Nvidia’s backstop. If Nvidia can’t pay then it’s all over and AI companies have been swallowed by credit markets.
Your hypothesis also ignores the fact that if frontier labs are not paying for compute it is because they have bad revenue, little cash available and no credit (no one is loaning money to OAI or Anthropic if they can’t pay their bills. They can barely get debt today).
> Regardless, the terms come down to positioning and bargaining power. Runway vs obligations. This seems to dramatically favor the labs.
No, the only way out is for OpenAI or Anthropic to claim in court that they would be insolvent if they are required to pay the bill in full. Otherwise this is a straight forward deal.
You are greatly overestimating their capabilities and underestimating how many substantially more well-funded and highly liquid players will be lining up to take their pound of flesh if OAI or Anthropic default on a bill.
I’d wager my life savings one of those two will go through liquidation.
[–] InsidiousWombat 3 days ago
[–] tjwebbnorfolk 4 days ago
[–] _heimdall 4 days ago
They could also continue to grow at the rates they had last year. I don't know where those customers would come from, but if they did pull that off OpenAI and Anthropic could sustain propping up the circular financing going around the AI industry.
[–] xlayn 4 days ago
[–] _heimdall 4 days ago
When everyone is afraid the market will collapse, or more likely distracted because the market collapsed just enough to hurt the average person, the government will bail them out and either people won't notice or will welcome it as a solution to huge levels of fear.
Voting isn't usually much of a solution after the fact, the political machine doesn't allow for candidates that would fix anything to have a chance at any office that matters. There's a reason our politicians today all seem to have roughly the same goals and all seem to become extremely wealthy while in office.
[–] psd1 4 days ago
[–] InsidiousWombat 3 days ago
[–] _heimdall 3 days ago
Two companies account for most of the frontier R&D, and something like 7 companies account for a huge portion of growth in the stock market. The government, especially under Trump, is very focused on continuing to see those numbers go up.
I also expect the government is pretty bought in on AI being the future and on us being in a race with China. They'd have to bail out the labs for those reasons alone.
Lastly in my opinion, Trump has a pretty socialist bent to him and regularly talks about a sovereign wealth fund owning portions of companies. He'd love to have take a partial stake in AI companies, and a bail out is a great way to do that.
[–] velcrovan 4 days ago
[–] _heimdall 3 days ago
Though I agree with you a bailout is a slap in the face. In my opinion bailouts shouldn't be legal, governments should pro actively be making sure individual corporations don't become so large that a failure would wreck the economy or national security.
[–] _heimdall 3 days ago
[–] wtch98 4 days ago
[–] fourthark 4 days ago
[–] _heimdall 4 days ago
I live in a state that votes heavily in one direction, most states are the same. Its fine for me to vote, but the winner of a majority of states is pretty well decided before a ballot is cast (by strong majority, I'm not claiming fraud).
[–] daveguy 4 days ago
[–] easyThrowaway 4 days ago
See also how AI companies re trying to sneak in basically every level of infrastructure and public administration.
[–] rayiner 4 days ago
[–] failbuffer 4 days ago
[–] _heimdall 4 days ago
[–] hvb2 4 days ago
They'll take a heavy hit stock wise, and might be an LLM company through all their shady financial constructions to keep the music going by propping up demand. But in the end, nvidia as a company has a place even when the frontier labs go bankrupt. Some other company will take their place. Worst case it'll be like the cable companies in the end 90s who found themselves out of work because they overbuilt for dotcom
[–] phoghed 4 days ago
Ok then iPhones are just metal, plastic, glass, and a delivery truck. You are just electric meat. This has to be one of the dumber comments I’ve read on here.
[–] jasomill 4 days ago
[–] daveguy 4 days ago
[–] jasomill 4 days ago
[–] Danox 3 days ago
[–] surajrmal 4 days ago
[–] InsidiousWombat 3 days ago
And SpaceX LLM business is "we failed to build competition so we just rent what we bought in hardware to other companies"
[–] jasomill 4 days ago
It’s not at all unusual for companies to run at a loss for several years before turning a profit.
[–] SlightlyLeftPad 4 days ago
[–] disgruntledphd2 4 days ago
Z.ai, who make GLM are public and their books are really, really, really bad.
[–] dnautics 3 days ago