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points by ackbar03 4 days ago | 0 comments
I was listening to a podcast about Jobs in his role at Next and was surprised how terrible and disfunctional he was as a CEO, at least in the initial phases. I still find it incredible that the company managed to actually make something valuable in the end and have enough runway for him to figure out how to do the job properly. Like seriously, how did he even manage to retain any talent at all at the company, I still find it incredible.
[–] jtfrench 3 days ago
I dunno man, as someone who’s worked directly with him and seen him in the flesh many times, it’s painfully obvious why Steve Jobs was an amazing (and flawed) human being that had people flocking around him. To act like someone has to be perfect in order to be admirable, that we don’t all have our thorns and warts, is in my opinion, a disingenuous take on the human condition. He did a lot of shitty things, like all of us if we go digging through our respective closets, but the man was truly a rare type of entrepreneur who even today completely stands out from the typical tech CEOs of Silicon Valley (many of which are also douchey, amoral, island-affiliated people, yet people still want to work for them). If this isn’t obvious to you why, my only guess is that you haven’t seen as many sides of him, or you’re not being honest about what it means to be human.
[–] ackbar03 3 days ago
Maybe I should clarify a bit what I meant. I'm not one of those "oh Steve jobs is a horrible person, he's so mean Yada Yada".

What I meant was he made some really horrible _business_ decisions while at NeXT, things that would be considered obvious today, like constant opinion changing on whim, constant product delays, product decisions that for the most part seemed to make the product more expensive and less functional, skipping important business meetings because oh-I'm-so-important when they really needed the sales etc. Granted I got all this from a podcast and didn't dig into the details myself, but I think for the large part he did objectively make some pretty horrible decisions in the early days at NeXT, although in the end it seems that he did seem to learn from them and turn things around, and arguably made him the guy he is more known for today.

Again, my amazement mostly stems from how he even had the chance to turn things around given the way the company was going and how he clearly still had some pretty talented people stick through the whole ordeal and end up producing valuable products through all that was going on.

[–] mentos 3 days ago
Curious if you have a minute to try to put more words to what made him amazing? I've got my ideas but curious to hear yours before I bias you.
[–] LightBug1 3 days ago
Thanks for that fairER assessment.

For all his warts and all, Jobs is starting to age well in comparison to the current crop of wankers.

Excuse my French.

[–] lapcat 3 days ago
> To act like someone has to be perfect in order to be admirable, that we don’t all have our thorns and warts, is in my opinion, a disingenuous take on the human condition. He did a lot of shitty things, like all of us if we go digging through our respective closets

IMO this is a disingenuous take on Steve Jobs. No, all of us are not as horrible to other people as Jobs, who was notorious for his abusiveness. This is like saying, we all tell lies, so how can we criticize Trump? There's a huge difference between normal human foibles and extreme antisocial behavior. Perhaps Jobs calmed down a bit as he got older, but the reports from his coworkers at NeXT for example were ugly. Some of them retained a lifetime of bitterness, and his death was a kind of catharsis for them, not that they wished him dead but rather they could finally let go of the old emotions.

Even good-natured Woz was pained when he finally learned years later that Jobs had cheated him on a pre-Apple business deal. The problem wasn't the money, which Woz was always happy to give away. It was the betrayal of trust and friendship. Jobs was not a normal dude. He was a deceitful narcissist; this is on the public record in an FBI background check: https://vault.fbi.gov/steve-jobs (credit to the book "Steve Jobs in Exile" for the link)

[–] stasomatic 3 days ago
But would we have what we have now without SJ? I read (listened) the book. I've worked with phony CEO talking heads with zero "vision". Apple has gone through many like that and still ended up on Steve, that says something, no?
[–] lapcat 3 days ago
> But would we have what we have now without SJ?

Does the end justify the means? That's an ethical question.

Also, how much did we really need what we have now? We can ask whether dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki was justified, but in any case the stakes were extremely high, already life and death, world war. The stakes are not nearly the same when we're talking about luxury consumer tech gadgets. How much do workers need to be abused just to produce those?

[–] stasomatic 3 days ago
I can't answer the ethical question, but I don't think it's binary B/W. We are not talking Oppenheimer here who's been elevated and his sins "pardoned".

I've listened to the most recent books, e.g. "Apple in China", "Steve Jobs in Exile", "Apple the first 50 years". By all accounts, he was a very difficult persona, but somehow folks gravitated to him or he changed gravity. Not trying to idolize the guy but failing, but I'll tell you I cried and my heart sank when I heard the news of his passing.

Who can you name now at the helm of any tech company today that has anywhere same gravitas? The charlatans at the 2 top AI firms? Certainly not MSFT, Google, Amazon and FB ether, imo. Nobody cares about their CEOs.

The stakes are not nearly the same when we're talking about luxury consumer tech gadgets. How much do workers need to be abused just to produce those?

But on this, vote with your wallet. This is not luxury though, this is - https://www.neimanmarcus.com/p/prod293940005

Neiman Marcus The 2026 Fantasy Gifts Star Wars Legacy Experience $182,500

iPhones are just phones at a different price point at a different quality point with different levels of support. Some like Hondas, others - Lexus'. I can't say about abuse, I haven't been to China or India, but do you think any people on Android assembly lines fare better off? Not arguing, just spitballing.

[–] Ryder123 2 days ago
Depends on the end, and depends on the means.