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points by petterroea 4 days ago | 0 comments
Recently I've gotten to a point where I am put off when a clearly vibe coded website asks for money.

I have seen too many examples of people trying to earn money on apps they clearly vibe coded in an hour. Why would I pay for that - might as well make it and sideload it myself. I might even publish it for free to the app store to spite them.

I really don't think you are in a position to be asking for money if you just made something using an LLM. You didn't put in much work yourself, and anyone could replicate it for the "low cost" of their LLM subscription.

[–] palata 3 days ago
> they clearly vibe coded in an hour. Why would I pay for that - might as well make it and sideload it myself

Deal! Make a screen recording of you doing the same thing (well, instead of Switzerland let's say Austria, since Switzerland is already done) and I'll pay you 15 bucks.

[–] gb2d_hn 4 days ago
Why would I buy a potato when I could grow one myself. Why do I give a busker money when I could play the real track on spotify. Why do we give anyone any money? Why don't we just do everything ourselves?
[–] petterroea 4 days ago
That's not really how it works, because in all your examples there is a pretty reasonable amount of work being put in that you are paying for.

Many AI projects are just a few prompts away, and very little labor intensive - you are mostly just delegating.

A much more accurate example would be "Why would I pay your son to mow my grass when i can get mine to do it"

[–] andybak 4 days ago
So do it. Everything AI assisted I've made has involved a ton of work. The only difference AI has made is that I've increased the level of my ambition and avoided a ton of things that were previously blockers.
[–] erfgh 3 days ago
I think whether it requires a lot of work is not the most important factor. The important factor is how easy it is to replace it. If it was made with AI I expect it to be easily copiable with AI. Therefore it doesn't make much sense to spend a lot, if any, money on it.
[–] FeepingCreature 3 days ago
There is no problem and no contradiction between your views.

If you want it, and you think it's easy to replace, try to reproduce it with AI.

If you find that it is harder than you thought, then go back and pay for the original.

[–] cman1444 3 days ago
It is surely much easier to replace a potato than to recreate this. Yet we still pay for potatoes.
[–] slopinthebag 3 days ago
no it's not. for one, potatoes take months to grow. secondly, they require land that many of us don't have.

generating an ai image of a potato is a better comparison.

[–] cman1444 3 days ago
Yes it is. I can go to the grocery store and buy one in 10 minutes from where I am now. And it would cost me very little to do so.

That's the analogous equivalent of spending the tokens to use AI to make this project.

The analogous equivalent of growing a potato yourself over months would be creating this website without AI.

[–] dewey 4 days ago
> Many AI projects are just a few prompts away

"Just a few prompts" is the new "can do that in a weekend". In reality it still takes a while to build everything, think about what features you want to have and how to prioritize them, how to build a good UX / UI, set up payment providers etc.

[–] hansonkd 3 days ago
Not saying you are wrong, but I just wanted to share that if you build the software for yourself, a lot of requirements just vanish. like you dont need payment providers or support multiple users, etc.
[–] gambiting 3 days ago
Well, then do it! If it's so simple and so offensive to you that you might actually copy this project and publish it for free, then PLEASE do it - I'll happily download your copy for free. Just make sure you fit it within an hour.
[–] donohoe 3 days ago

  "Why do I give a busker money when I could play the real track on spotify."
It is more like "Why do I give money to someone playing a track on Spotify when I could play that track on Spotify."
[–] malikNF 3 days ago
Thats a DJ
[–] well_ackshually 4 days ago
>Why would I buy a potato when I could grow one myself.

Because growing fruits is hard.

>Why do I give a busker money when I could play the real track on spotify.

Because playing music is hard.

This project is just "I handed https://arnismc.com/ to Claude and it generated maps from the open data that the Swiss government puts out for free. Oh and also I'm charging you for the slop"

[–] FrustratedMonky 3 days ago
AI generated web sites don't magically appear out of the ether.

Just like someone had to grow the potato.

Someone had to 'use' the AI to 'do something'.

The AI just cut out some steps, -> Just Like the Plow did.

[–] rfgplk 4 days ago
> This project is just "I handed https://arnismc.com/ to Claude and it generated maps from the open data that the Swiss government puts out for free. Oh and also I'm charging you for the slop"

Why does this matter? I see the AI detractors still can't cope with the fact that you're allowed to charge for AI generated work. You have to be insane or severely demented to try doing something like this by hand.

As a follow up I just went and looked at the arnismc project since I haven't heard of it. At least it's written in Rust, which is respectable but it's only ~200k loc of Rust? And most of it is also 100% LLM generated by the looks of it?

[–] fzeroracer 3 days ago
> Why does this matter? I see the AI detractors still can't cope with the fact that you're allowed to charge for AI generated work.

It's interesting that you immediately call them an AI detractor because they refuse to pay for something that's low effort. You're not entitled to someone's money and people certainly aren't required to pay for something if they think they can just make it themselves. You're complaining about a bed of your own making, where you want to act like it requires a lot of effort while people replicate it effortlessly.

[–] bluebarbet 3 days ago
This is a silly debate you're both having. Money is not real, and a price is whatever a buyer is willing to pay. Emotions are best spent elsewhere.
[–] cman1444 3 days ago
It's not just their refusal to pay for something that's low-effort. It's the fact that they are criticizing the creator for charging anyone at all.

You're not entitled to dictate what someone else charges for their product, no matter how easy it is to make.

[–] fzeroracer 3 days ago
I'm sorry, I didn't realize we're on a forum where you're not allowed to criticize how people price things. My mistake, I'll be sure to tell other people to censor their posts ahead of time.
[–] cman1444 3 days ago
Of course you're allowed to criticize.

Likewise, others are free to criticize your criticism.

My point is it's silly to be upset about others charging for products that are easily vibe coded. If it's that easy to make, and they are charging too much, then someone else (it could even be you!) will come along and undercut them.

[–] slopinthebag 3 days ago
you're allowed to criticize. criticism is not dictation.
[–] cman1444 3 days ago
Right. My point with that comment was to mirror fezoracer's comment that "you are not entitled to someone else's money and people aren't required to pay for something they can make themselves"

Both are strawman arguments, so my mistake on mine.

[–] slopinthebag 3 days ago
"ai detractors" and it's people saying they won't pay for something they could build themselves using ai...
[–] well_ackshually 3 days ago
Because if you're a talentless hack, you could have least have the decency to not charge for open data (that Swiss taxpayers have already paid for). There is nothing original, creative, new to this project.
[–] rfgplk 3 days ago
So Google shouldn't charge for API access to maps either according to you. It's all open data
[–] well_ackshually 3 days ago
Google Maps is absolutely not open data lmao. A single read of their terms of services threatens you about twenty times about the consequences of copying, caching or looking the wrong way at their tiles, metadata, map styles, reverse geocoders and any other service.
[–] IncreasePosts 3 days ago
They aren't charging for open data. They transformed the data, using AI.
[–] j1elo 3 days ago
Go to the fundamentals. Assuming that this is low effort, if this is low value, it will die sooner than later. If this is high value, soon there would be incentive for someone to do a clone and charge $1 less to compete.
[–] tiborsaas 4 days ago
Why do people go to restaurants and pay significantly more when they can just buy the ingredients and cook at home? Those damn chefs make my food in 15 minutes.
[–] samus 3 days ago
Just tally up how long it takes to shop, cook at home, and clean up, and multiply it with the rate at $dayjob. I am pretty sure for most people on Hacker News the figure will be significantly higher than at a restaurant, and we would have to adopt a similar working style to bring the cost down, like buying and preparing in bulk, focusing on a few dishes, cooking for multiple people at once, etc.

I am not exactly a fan of this kind of comparison unless one can actually freely allocate one's time, but it is illustrative.

[–] adrian_b 3 days ago
What you say is right in principle, but the difference in cost between raw food ingredients and ready-to-eat meals from a supermarket is huge (ten times or more) and in comparison with the same food bought in a restaurant it is even greater, of up to 50 times or even 100 times.

Because of this great price difference, it is not very difficult to optimize how you cook in order to reduce the time spent with that down to a level that would save money even by your accounting method. Moreover, when you cook your own food the greatest advantage is that you know precisely the quality and the quantity of the ingredients that are included and that may be enough to make it worthwhile.

For instance, I normally eat only food that I cook myself from raw ingredients, but I spend little time for that. I buy some ingredients from a supermarket once per week, which requires about a half of hour. Other ingredients I order from an online shop and they arrive at my home.

Cooking requires each day about one hour, i.e. about a half hour for each of the 2 meals I eat, but most of each half hour is waiting for food to be cooked in a microwave oven or for it to cool down, when I can work or do any other activities. Only about 10 minutes are needed at each meal with things like paring and slicing vegetables, mixing ingredients and washing dishes. I bake even the bread that I eat, instead of buying it. Cooking with a microwave oven allows a lot of shortcuts in comparison with traditional methods, e.g. many dishes that require stirring when done on a stove do not require it when done in a microwave oven, which frees you to do other things. The same is true with bread, which does not require the traditional kneading of the dough when done in a microwave oven, but you can use an excess of water (or milk) that makes the dough fluid enough to mix it easily and this is sufficient and the bread will grow tremendously anyway.

Years ago, I was wasting much more time with cooking, so I typically cooked in a weekend day the food for all week and I just reheated it every day, but after gaining more experience I could reduce the required time until I could afford to cook only immediately before eating, because the time needed for that is short enough.

Nonetheless, when cooking for an entire family while having a job that occupies most of your time, probably only the method with cooking in a weekend day for all week is feasible.

[–] amiga386 4 days ago
Why do people go to real restaurants, with chefs who actually cook things, when they can cook at home? Possibly the quality of the food, atmosphere etc.

Why do people go to pub restaurants, where one of the overworked staff will put a frozen meal in a microwave until it goes "ding", then slop it onto a plate for you? Probably not the same reasons, and you'd expect a lot cheaper, though not as cheap as the same microwave meal from the supermarket.

Do people go to what they think is a real restaurant, because its marketing has diddled them, but find out it's actually a pub restaurant when they get there, replete with low-effort slop? If they do, I hope they leave a terrible review and don't come back.

[–] tiborsaas 4 days ago
Interesting division you make there, I go to both "real", higher end restaurants and "low grade" pub restaurants. For me, the the reason is the same, convenience, laziness and lack of my expertise and willingness to cook.

Obviously I can judge a place based on the quality of service and food, but that's not the reason I've gone there in the first place.

[–] skybrian 3 days ago
They spent the tokens so you don’t have to. This is clearly AI-generated but doesn’t look low-effort, even with heavy AI assistance.

But if you’re sure it’s easy, why not give it a try?

[–] throwaway2037 3 days ago
How do you feel about AI generated music? There is an artists who calls themself "Nick Hustles" that makes a lot of funny soul/funk tracks. You can listen on YouTube or Spotify. It feels like a different type of Weird Al Yankovic -- the humor is a bit more adult. Honestly, I'm fine with it, but I can I understand if you feel different.

Here is a good tune ("Minding My Goddamn Business"), and the lyrics really make me laugh: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qhvUJi01ng

The New Yorker also wrote about him here: https://www.newyorker.com/culture/infinite-scroll/that-new-h...

[–] guitarlimeo 3 days ago
Not GP but the value of AI music to me is $0. It had its one time novelty moments ("look what AI can do") and can fill the background as any $0 muzak before could. But as anyone, me included can generate songs like that infinite times makes it so common it's lame. There's no scarcity of AI songs, why should I be impressed with any that come up?

Plus it seems Suno still hasn't managed to figure the static noise creeping up as the song goes on (compare the sound of the hi-hats at the start vs. the end)

[–] throwaway2037 3 days ago
This feels like the same argument all over again. Think about the open source projects who are posting new rules like: "No AI/LLM usage is allowed!" Yet, there are many cases where you cannot tell if AI/LLM was used. For the Nick Hustles track that I shared, you cannot tell.

I recall in the 1990s a big argument about using vocoders in the production of pop music to adjust the tone of a singers voice. Many critics were quick and loud to say the users were no longer "real artists". Really, those critics have been left in the dust. In modern music production, vocoders are now commonplace.

[–] guitarlimeo 2 days ago
I have come to terms with code being replaced by AI, even though some of it could be described as art created by a skilled artist (see: Animal Well). Most of it has utility first and foremost, and should be secure from attacks and optimized. If AI can do those things better than humans, then commercial software should move to that direction to be better utilized.

I do not share the same sentiment regarding drawn art or music and will try my best to support artists who don't need AI to perform/create. Modern music production already is using AI to its fullest extent for sure, its their loss. I've never listened much pop and instead have always tried to support people who actually have more skills in their toolset than just writing lyrics. My most listened genres atm include jazz, psychedelic rock and metal.

> For the Nick Hustles track that I shared, you cannot tell.

I accept that the future is bleak and there will be many cases where I won't know until someone points it out. It has happened a couple of times already. Always a big disappointment, then I shrug it off and go back to artists I know. I'm not alone in feeling this disappointment. [1]

> Many critics were quick and loud to say the users were no longer "real artists". Really, those critics have been left in the dust. In modern music production, vocoders are now commonplace.

How is this an apt analogy? Yes, those critics are better left in the dust, a signal modifier (vocoder) is just a signal modifier. Suno creates whole songs, skipping all the skills needed to even be a musician. Are you seriously comparing the two?

Also if that analogy worked, this "gotcha" doesn't really work for me as I never haven't really liked modern music production where playback is more and more common live. Multiple times I've thought of organizing a "live-only" festival where only simple setups are allowed to allow artists to show how skilled they really are, but I've realized that 1) most pop artists won't go there to show their lack of skills 2) jazz festivals exist for already skilled musicians.

I personally think there will be some "no AI used" label for artists, much like there is for organic food, and people like me who value human skills & craftmanship and want to support that kinda lifestyle can use that labeling when making purchases. Much in the similar fashion as with organic label nowadays I predict it will be gamed, there will be disappointments, but it will on a longer run be better than not having anything like that. It is to make a statement, it is to support local, smaller artists and reject the norm.

[1] https://business.columbia.edu/insights/digital-future/why-ai...

[–] gambiting 3 days ago
Right, but the value of the same music just generated by a human was also $0. If the tracks are effectively background music it doesn't matter how they are made - the value is nothing.
[–] guitarlimeo 3 days ago
No it isn't to me. It's infinitely more valuable to me even if its sold at $0.01 as AI to me is $0.
[–] tern 2 days ago
Were I thinking of giving money to a cause, I would consider it a good thing that $20-100k of it wasn't going to building a website that they could otherwise build nearly for free. I'd rather my money go toward solving the core problem they're raising the money for.
[–] weego 4 days ago
If your only measure of value is human labour just say that. Whether it's AI or not is irrelevant at that point if that's your stance.

Obviously anyone can make anything once they've seen it implemented from someone else's idea. Maybe sometimes the idea is the value in itself, the action of taking it from zero to product is just a means to distribute the idea.

[–] monsieurbanana 3 days ago
> Whether it's AI or not is irrelevant at that point if that's your stance

The human brain works with pattern recognition. Regardless of whether I think that llms are great or not, right now they're vastly used to produce slop (I know it doesn't have to be the case), and because of the aforementioned pattern recognition we are largely being trained to recognize ai-generated content as slop.

There's really only one logical outcome:

If you're trying to sell something to me and you have a vibe-coded website, it doesn't matter how great your product is, I'll never even get to see it because it's slop-by-default.

And you don't even have to bring up AI at all to see how that's a bad idea. AI is flooding everything, isn't it a basic marketing strategy to differentiate yourself from the rest?

[–] olmo23 4 days ago
I disagree. What might be "a few prompts in claude code" for you, could be a lot of work for someone else. Not everyone is comfortable setting up a domain name and hosting etc... and if you provide value, why not ask for something in return?
[–] lionkor 3 days ago
It's incredibly sad that somehow knowing how to navigate websites made for complete idiots (domain registrars) is considered worth paying for. How many middle-men do you want to pay?
[–] busssard 4 days ago
i only see it when they provide a service and it costs to host that service