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points by christophilus 3 days ago | 0 comments
My former boss at Microsoft told me this sort of thing is a good way to get rid of your best, most employable employees. I guess he didn’t pass the memo up the chain.
[–] hypfer 3 days ago
The truth of the matter I think is that you do not actually need the best.

Most of the time, anyway.

As far as business is concerned, the thing often runs better with mid people with less leverage. They just do their job, don't have any ideas and you can squeeze them.

Because it's not all the best that are leaving. Just the ones not stuck with a mortgage or similar stuff. This cuts the wings of very capable people and completely strips them off their bargaining power. Which is very useful to management.

[–] siva7 3 days ago
> The truth of the matter I think is that you do not actually need the best.

Not all employees need to be the "best". But if you are a top tier company in a given field like Microsoft, you need the best minds to stay top tier, otherwise you will descend. But on the other hand you don't need the lower tier performers to stay top tier except for scaling reasons because the supply for top tier performers is a very small pool...

[–] hypfer 3 days ago
You can still keep some of the best minds, but you do not need them on every team and every project.

I might be wrong, but I doubt that these mass buyouts were also offered to those that are strategically relevant. Though I guess that can happen if that specific branch of the management tree is bad at their jobs

[–] siva7 3 days ago
Other ways are to offer "secret" bonuses and perks to the talent you want to keep. If the management / department wants to keep you no matter what, you will clearly notice this despite mass layoffs.
[–] geodel 3 days ago
I think you are right. Besides this "Best" category is also fluid. Best of 2000's is not best in 2020s for a business.

This also works as price discovery mechanism for both parties. Best employee can take a break and apply later for different job, profile, growth industry etc. Companies also find better to hire what they think best at market price instead of honorary best which are there for long time.

[–] namrog84 3 days ago
The last ms team I was on before I quit changed quite a few over the years as the business and requirements changed. I learned a lot about what I enjoy and where I thrive. Where I had done well for a few years the business had become something that was better suited for others. It was best for me and the team that I left and they find someone better suited for the current and future work.

Even now with agentic work there are areas I am able to do well and some areas im not. It's definitely always changing.

[–] izacus 3 days ago
You sound like you don't really know much about teams and leadership.

Getting rid of your best means you'll also make sure that the rest of them slowly, but surely leave and never come back. Good people will not work with average people which results in long term failure to compete for the company.

There's a reason why all tech industry leaders have focused on getting a *consistent* and *even* pool of good workers to establish themselves there (against wisdom of the MBA crowd you're repeating here).

[–] hypfer 3 days ago
It is detracting from the conversation to dismiss people like this just because they say something you do not personally agree with.

Or rather because they share observations about the world you might not like.

[–] izacus 3 days ago
I'm not dismissing people, I'm dismissing your poorly thought out opinion.

This is what a discussion is - and besides me not liking it, it's also flawed and dismissive of people.

[–] hypfer 3 days ago
U-huh. I don't think that what you're doing here is warranted or correct.

Having checked your CV, I can see why you're probably doing it, but that's still.. not great. Maybe you should've also checked mine before running with these strong opinions.

[–] selicos 3 days ago
What management thinks is good and what employees, especially engineering type employees, think is good are usually counter.

The execs want to run the most profit to cost they can squeeze out, usually short term. The employees see the value in the senior and knowledge rich staff with higher costs long term.

[–] hypfer 3 days ago
Arguably, management might be more often than not more right in their assessment.

Which hurts me to say. But engineers tend to make for terrible businessmen. (There are exceptions of course, and the opposite is _even worse_)

[–] nashashmi 3 days ago
That is a rule for a good project manager. When work is simple, you don't need bright people. You just need average guys. But when work is cutting edge, you need very talented people.

I think the efforts on cutting edge works has been reduced and redirected to more market-dominating trends like LLM optimizations. This is a bet. Cut off the finger for a stronger arm. And I think this bet will fail. But I thought the same about this new Gemini after Bard, and boy I was wrong.

[–] orky56 3 days ago
Companies want to get rid of the bottom 25% of the employees at all times. These offers often get taken advantage by half of those and half of others who are more capable & find it opportunistic to do something better. If that latter half had stayed, they would have outperformed their pay. If the company needs to re-hire that lost output in employees, it's a net negative. If they can guarantee that the ones who stayed plus AI outweighs the time to onboard and institutional knowledge lost, sure seems reasonable but high risk for a large company that is allowed to play it safer.
[–] geodel 3 days ago
I think by now companies are not under any illusion that they can precisely pinpoint bottom 25% of employees. Their reasonable efforts are about separating out few folks they absolutely want to keep in business continuity sense. Rest below average, average, above average, "best" are fair game.
[–] Frieren 3 days ago
> The truth of the matter I think is that you do not actually need the best.

That is true for monopolies. Once you get a monopoly, you do not need to compete anymore. Lower the salaries. Make products worse. Increase prices. Monopolies do not need to care. We used to break them because that. Nowadays, bots just will tell you that they are monopolies because they are "so good". So, here we are.

[–] ltbarcly3 3 days ago
This is true if you are running a car wash. Even the mid tier employees satisfactorily do the job and customers can be given what they paid for. You are competing on geographic location and ability to do a very easy task repeatedly over and over. You get another chance to sell your product every single day, and you can adjust your prices up and down to find the sweet spot because the sales cycle repeats every day.

It is not true if you are determining the correct feature to add to microsoft's money making products. That requires deep knowledge of users and the industry and the existing product. It requires understanding the industry and users far in advance, the turnaround time for a feature in Windows or Azure is likely 6 months or longer, sometimes years. It requires acumen and an ability to think about customers and the market and sales. Microsoft doesn't have 5000 people who can do this. They probably don't have 1000. These people can go start their own business or consulting firm today. There are lots of people they worked with in the past who know how good they are so they can get another job.

The same is true for engineering. Out of 500 engineers, there are 10-20 that are doing the really important work that you can't just find someone else to do. They know everything about the system and everyone comes to them for advice or to get explanations about how things are put together and why. You can't just find some average engineer and put them in the same desk as these 10-20 and magically things are fine, the mid tier person doesn't have the years of experience nor the potential to fill this role even if they did have the experience.

[–] hypfer 3 days ago
> That requires deep knowledge of users and the industry and the existing product.

I.. uh. I hate to break it to you, but that's not as deep of a moat as this reads like you would believe it is.

Engineers (like me, fwiw) would love to believe all these things about themselves, but they're not really true.

Of course, there is a difference, but the difference just doesn't matter all that much in the real world. Markets do not care.

Which isn't to say that people shouldn't know their worth. But it is to say that one can better defend their worth when armed with an accurate assessment of reality.

[–] jeltz 3 days ago
No, you love to break it to people.
[–] hypfer 3 days ago
Fair challenge and you got me there. I've been just adding that prefix because social convention demands it and not because I'd be feeling that way.

Or rather, it is an incredibly cheap way to shut down a whole range of dumb counters, so of course one throws it in.

But I do not love to break it to people. I am ambivalent about that. I just like true things.

So you're right on the "something isn't authentic here" but wrong on the assessment of the motivation.

[–] ltbarcly3 1 day ago
You are responding to points I didn't make.

I said that their strategy is self defeating. You are arguing they will do it anyway.

You are arguing that people are delusional about their worth. My point agrees with that, most people are, but there are some people that are actually valuable and companies are very bad at telling the difference.

[–] Waterluvian 3 days ago
I dunno how prevalant this term is, but people at my last robotics company called it the "dead sea effect." Those who can, leave. Those who can't, hang on.
[–] nmstoker 3 days ago
It didn't seem that obvious a term as you described it here, but a bit of googling gave the background:

It's effectively that the more desirable elements leave, the less desirable parts stay behind and get more concentrated... So the bad employees are the salt in the dead sea

It was coined by this chap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Webster#Career

[–] ThrowawayB7 3 days ago
MS did a round of layoffs that was specifically targeting low performance last year: https://www.cnbc.com/2025/01/08/microsoft-confirms-performan... and there's no reason to believe they wouldn't do it again. I doubt that anyone there is unaware that hanging on isn't a realistic option if they're not delivering.
[–] MisterMunchkin 3 days ago
You get the same with government jobs. Anyone smart leaves and gets a better job, so you’re left with the dregs.
[–] linuxftw 3 days ago
I termed it "Sh*t floats" when I was in the Navy.
[–] ben_w 3 days ago
My dad told me his bosses were very surprised when he eagerly accepted a similar deal. IIRC, he was about 60 at the time, so would have had about 6 years early retirement given what the pension age was back then.
[–] logicchains 3 days ago
I guess unfortunately there isn't an easy way to just "only fire the employees responsible for making Teams suck".
[–] DeepYogurt 3 days ago
In theory that's a manager's responsibility, but managers get (effectively) punished for firing people so that never happens in practice.
[–] darksaints 3 days ago
Well they’re the ones that cost the most money!
[–] lenerdenator 3 days ago
They're also the ones that create the most money.

Ultimately, you can only take equity away from people like that for so long. We're taking the people who actually create the value and firing them so that we can satisfy the hangers-on, meaning shareholders who often 1) don't know they even own MS and 2) are often diversified as to make a real problem with Microsoft not a dealbreaker for their financial goals.

[–] hn_throwaway_99 2 days ago
That may be true in an industry that is growing, but the calculus changes a ton in a shrinking industry, or at least one with a ton of near and long term uncertainty.

I mean, suppose you're a star performer at Microsoft. Consider the following:

1. The FAANGs pay better than just about any corporation on Earth.

2. Most of those FAANGs have also had plenty of layoffs of their own.

3. If you are the caliber of person who works at Microsoft who could get a job at a super hot AI company (say NVidia, OpenAI, Anthropic, etc.) my guess is most of these people already left.

I suspect that most of the people who end up taking this offer have already checked out in some way, i.e. people wanting to quit and now this gives them a reason to do so.

[–] beebmam 3 days ago
This is why it was only offered to 60k people. The best performers are likely not given the option.
[–] catchnear4321 3 days ago
there’s a difference between a memo passed and a memo read. (let alone a memo acted upon.)
[–] dominotw 3 days ago
Market is horrible even for 'best employees' . Best employees arent that different from mid employees these days because everyone is slinging the same slop.
[–] siva7 3 days ago
Not true, the market is exceptional for the best in tech. The problem arises when some employees think they are the best - despite the facts not lining up.
[–] hn_throwaway_99 2 days ago
I think you're both kind of right. The market is exceptional for the best in a very specific niche of tech.

Yes, people with specific, real AI skills (and by "real" I'm specifically excluding the "let me show you the secrets to a good prompt!!" LinkedInfluencers) are making obscene amounts of money. But there are other folks who were experts in their fields and truly the best are now having a mighty difficult time getting hired. There was a front page HN post recently by a guy who headhunters used to trip over themselves to contact, who wrote a number of programming books, who was considering leaving tech because he couldn't get hired. Now, granted, a big reason he couldn't get hired is because he was looking for a fully remote job and that world is largely gone, but I think another big reason is that he was a technology expert in specific programming languages, and that is exactly the type of expertise that AI is making less valuable.

[–] theossuary 3 days ago
I don't believe you. I literally can't get an interview, but I joined a mature startup through a subcontracting gig to make ends meet, and a month in they're asking if they can just hire me. The hiring process is broken.
[–] siva7 3 days ago
You were promoted to perm employee a month in. How does that contradict my earlier statement? The broken hiring process in tech is something entirely different - it was broken 10 years ago, 20 years ago, nothing new
[–] dominotw 3 days ago
> You were promoted to perm employee a month in.

having to get "promoted" to even get a perm job is not 'exceptional job market'

[–] theossuary 3 days ago
Ten years ago and five years ago I could interview for a job and be hired. Now I can't get an interview and the only employment option came through a contracting referral from my network. I don't see how that points to hiring not being weirdly more broken than it was? I don't consider friends-of-friends as the normal interview/hiring process, well at least till now.
[–] musebox35 3 days ago
> Now I can't get an interview and the only employment option came through a contracting referral from my network.

The more senior you are, the more you will need to rely on network referrals. Most HR processes are designed around filling average positions and filter for it especially when the number of applicants are high. I switched jobs around 2024 and all the interviews I got was through referrals or directly reaching out to the founders. I got zero callbacks from applications to HR.

Also five years ago, we had a once in a generation pandemic that forced all retailers to go online at global level, pushed remote work to be the norm and the tech workers suddenly had access to a growing global job market. That was the exception not the norm.

[–] palata 3 days ago
Are you one of the best in tech?
[–] dominotw 3 days ago
isnt everyone
[–] bushbaba 3 days ago
Yes and No. If you are a citizen and have “AI” experience there’s plenty of startups offering base salaries in excess of the average Microsoft total comp.
[–] blitzar 3 days ago
9 figure signing bonuses are a horrible problem to have
[–] red75prime 3 days ago
Maybe something has changed between now and then? Say, some kind of a technology that allows to select eligible employees better.
[–] burnte 3 days ago
Definitely not. We are no better at finding good employees than we ever were. It's the human biases that make it bad, not the technology.
[–] red75prime 3 days ago
"We" as in "industry in general" or "we" as in "HR at my company"? Although, I'd be more interested in what Microsoft does.
[–] burnte 3 days ago
We as in humans in general.
[–] red75prime 3 days ago
My initial comment was tongue in cheek (but transparent enough I think, given the context). So, let's be clear. I questioned whether it's still true that it's people who are doing all the HR work at Microsoft without LLM assistance.

You, probably, talk about something else.

[–] burnte 2 days ago
Nearly every HR department uses AI these days, and it just makes things worse because they're easy to game.
[–] red75prime 2 days ago
Then I'd just marvel at your all-encompassing knowledge.