Hacker News
points by margalabargala 3 days ago | 0 comments
The obnoxious/confusing thing is that models are released individually rather than as a family.

Luna < Terra < Sol < Astra, fine. But does Terra 6.1 beat Sol 6? Does Fable 5.1 beat Opus 5.5? If I build something around this Terra 6.1 release, then when Luna 6.2 is released in a month, should I swap?

[–] cdirkx 3 days ago
I understand the confusion, but isn't this kind of similar to asking does the iPhone 14 Max beat the iPhone 16 Mini? At least with phones there are hard specs we can use to compare, but in a lot of cases the answer will be "it depends"
[–] Closi 3 days ago
At least there is a simple system - the words 'Mini' and 'Max' are intended to refer to the size of the item (that one is miniature, and the other is their maximum size).

If they were called iPhone 14 Luna and iPhone 16 Sol then this is less clear.

Or on the flipside, if the models were called GPT 6.1 Mini and GPT 6.1 Max, nobody would be arguing about the names being hard to grok. The words 'mini' or 'small' are more descriptive than 'Luna' or 'Terra'.

[–] lukeschlather 3 days ago
The problem with that is then you would have GPT 6.1 Max with max thinking which is different from GPT 6.1 Small with max thinking.

If you look back the naming problem started around the point that OpenAI started doing reasoning models (o1, 4o) where they had to describe this fork in model behavior that let a smaller model think longer and be smarter.

You can come up with naming schemes that don't clash, but there's something to be said for this approach where the thinking level is like you describe and the model name requires you to learn that Astra is the largest model.

[–] rpeden 3 days ago
I guess it never really occurred to me that people wouldn't immediately grok:

* Luna (Moon)

* Terra (Earth)

* Sol (Sun)

* Astra (Galaxy/Universe)

The relative sizing seems dead simple.

[–] no-name-here 3 days ago
> dead simple.

1. Even more dead simple if it just used Moon instead of Luna, Sun instead of Sol, etc. - one less quick translation in the head.

2. Or even more dead simple if it just used "Small", "Large", etc. - removing another quick translation in the head. (On the other hand, all these suggestions are English - maybe Luna, etc. is more understandable for non-English speakers?)

[–] Closi 2 days ago
100%! The other problem is that the next model release from OpenAI there will be another different 4 terms.
[–] margalabargala 3 days ago
You're misunderstanding the misunderstanding.

You're right! The relative sizing of models is dead simple. This doesn't help when there are improvements between release numbers, and models are released one at a time instead of as a family.

When Sol 6.4 comes out and the latest Astra is still 6.1, which do you use?

[–] arcfour 3 days ago
I use Sol 6.4 because it's newer (and "big") unless there is a specific benchmark that 6.1 Astra scores better on that I think I need.

Or I might try both and pick whichever I prefer for a given task...

[–] margalabargala 3 days ago
Okay, now how many generations until you use Terra over Astra?
[–] arcfour 3 days ago
Probably never? Unless they get super far out of sync, a "medium" model just isn't the right choice for a "large" (or "extra large") model task.
[–] Closi 2 days ago
I mean Astra actually means star, but putting that aside, we also have GPT sunburst and GPT flare - how does the logic apply to these?

Is a sunburst supposed to be bigger than a flare? I mean you get solar flares too? Or is a solar flare bigger than a sun 'burst' which usually just means some sun coming through clouds.

[–] margalabargala 3 days ago
> does the iPhone 14 Max beat the iPhone 16 Mini?

Sure, in a hypothetical world where the latest Max phone is two generations older than the latest Mini phone. In which case now you have to evaluate not only screen size but ALSO specs and component age and software support etc. How badly do you need the bigger screen? Etc

If you are comparing the iPhone 16 Max to the iPhone 16 Mini, everything is a lot easier.

[–] saagarjha 3 days ago
> iPhone 16 Mini

I wish

[–] nailer 3 days ago
It's more like if Apple called the iPhone 16 the "iPhone 14 16 edition"
[–] kridsdale1 3 days ago
I’d rock an iPhone 1942 Edition.
[–] someguyiguess 3 days ago
Don’t forget to refill the kerosene tank!
[–] XCSme 3 days ago
Yeah, but shouldn't then all 4 tiers be released at once? So we get 6.1 for all Luna/Terra/Sol/Astra?
[–] breezybottom 3 days ago
I mean yes, phone manufacturers have the same problem.
[–] someguyiguess 3 days ago
No. It’s not similar at all.
[–] elxr 3 days ago
Run your own evals then if you have this much of a need to "correctly" choose. That'll make it clear.

I'll just stick to mostly Sol on low/medium/high and start experimenting with Terra tomorrow onward to see what it does noticeably better than Luna/Deepseek flash.

Any pareto frontier model, especially from the leading labs is guarnateed to be good enough for whatever your expectations are at this point. A quick few day test should be enough for anyone to make their own conclusions.

[–] margalabargala 3 days ago
Right, having products so poorly described that a customer needs to run their own evals to choose well is exactly what is being complained about.
[–] solyin 3 days ago
Or I'm going to give up and not use any. Consumers aren't perfectly rational. This isn't like toothpaste, where, despite being overwhelmed at the store, I still need to brush my teeth so ahhhhhh fuckit and just pick a toothpaste out of the 30 available. The alternative is I keep using Google search and think AI is stupid. Or just use Facebook's thing.
[–] imtringued 3 days ago
The irony with tooth paste is that out of those 30, probably 28 are exactly identical. If all you want is fluoride tooth paste then pick the cheapest tooth paste.

If you want to go optimize your mouth hygiene it is actually more important to use dental bristles (flossing is not as good), because most of the work is done by the mechanical cleaning action of the tooth brush and you need to reach the places where the tooth brush cant get into.

Once you have done that, the next step is alcohol-free xylitol based mouth wash. Caries bacteria have trouble digesting xylitol so this reduces the presence of them in your mouth.

Only after you have done that, are you ready for something better than fluoride. Fluoride is a remineralization agent. Your saliva also contains calcium that helps your teeth remineralize. So the next thing you need is a more potent remineralization agent. Basically your tooth paste acts as a more concentrated saliva. Because of that, it is actually better to use e.g. fluoride in the morning and a different agent in the evening.

The classic options are bioglass (novamin) or hydroxyapatite. The latter is also available as mouth wash.

[–] 2III7 3 days ago
The frontier toothpaste is the one with bioglass 45S5. Especially if you have sensitive teeth or your teeth are prone to caries.
[–] mc3301 3 days ago
Nano-HAp is good, too
[–] nailer 3 days ago
> > But does Terra 6.1 beat Sol 6?

> Run your own evals then if you have this much of a need to "correctly" choose.

No. OpenAI want my money, it's on them to communicate properly.

[–] nharada 3 days ago
What would you want to see instead? Not sure about you but my needs are specific enough that I don't think OAI has evals for them, and I wouldn't want to give them that data even if they wanted to run it for me.
[–] nailer 3 days ago
“ChatGPT 6.1 Max” would be simple.
[–] austhrow743 3 days ago
Then you're going to have ChatGPT 6.1 Max Low and ChatGPT 6.1 Max Max.
[–] nailer 2 days ago
No you're not.
[–] austhrow743 2 days ago
You're suggesting renaming the effort level as well?
[–] ssl-3 3 days ago
How does one more-properly articulate "it depends"?
[–] nailer 2 days ago
"New model, middle version" is already communicated well by Apple.
[–] ssl-3 2 days ago
That's a computer, wherein: More is better.

But here we have LLMs, wherein: It depends. The smaller models can in fact outperform the bigger ones, and get some stuff done cheaper, better, and faster.

If the question is "Which one is best?" then the answer is "It depends on what the fuck you're doing."

(If that answer is found to be unfulfilling, then let it serve as an indication that a person may be better-served by improving their questions.)

[–] 0-_-0 3 days ago
On what?
[–] Majromax 3 days ago
> Luna < Terra < Sol < Astra, fine. But does Terra 6.1 beat Sol 6? Does Fable 5.1 beat Opus 5.5? If I build something around this Terra 6.1 release, then when Luna 6.2 is released in a month, should I swap?

I understand how it can be confusing, but I don't think that this is exactly a problem.

Luna through Astra offer qualitative descriptions of the model's size. Presumably OpenAI trains its biggest model (Astra-ish, maybe even larger) first, then distills it to smaller sizes.

Verison numbers reflect something about the architecture or training dataset. Again, they keep these details close to their chest, but we should expect that weight-for-weight higher versions should beat lower versions.

This offers us two axes of 'better', but these axes are also not directly comparable. An earlier but bigger model may or may not beat a newer but smaller model. This is where 'spiky' intelligence comes in.

This is also where calls to 'run your own evaluation' really do start to matter. If you care enough about this performance[1], then you also have specific problems that you care about. No generic benchmark can fully answer that question, hence the need for a specific evaluation.

[1] — And you don't have to! A casual user is probably served reasonably well by anything put out in the past six months. I think Microsoft is still serving GPT-4o under some Copilot branding.

[–] margalabargala 3 days ago
I think it is a problem, for OpenAI. If their answer to "which of your models are better" is to throw their hands in the air and say "fuck if we know, go figure it out yourself" then that's going to go poorly as soon as they try to actually sell to some of the market they're predicting they can sell to.

Whether they train the biggest model first or not is not relevant; what matters is what they release. Right now we've got 6.1 Sol and 6.0 Astra. Over at Anthropic they've got Opus 5.5 and Fable 5.1. The existence of a hypothetical Fable 5.5 that I'm not allowed to use doesn't help me.