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points by rayiner 2 days ago | 0 comments
Rubio dismantled the program, as the Senate confirmed political appointee of the duly elected head of the executive branch.

You can debate whether the President has the power to dismantle USAID under the relevant statutes. Those lawsuits are winding their way through the courts. But if he does have the power, then it would be perverse if he couldn’t exercise the power due to HR rules. You cannot put HR in the way of the duly elected President exercising his powers.

[–] hvb2 2 days ago
> But if he does have the power, then it would be perverse if he couldn’t exercise the power due to HR rules.

It's not even established that he has the power. The fact that they do something doesn't mean they have that power.

And given that, it doesn't mean that you get to ignore all other rules.

> You cannot put HR in the way of the duly elected President exercising his powers.

When you're firing thousands of people, some due diligence is in order, no?

[–] rayiner 2 days ago
> It's not even established that he has the power.

Sure, I agree with that. But the President doesn’t need a court ruling giving permission before he exercises his powers. The President is the chief executive in charge of government operations, not the courts. If he’s acting outside his authority, you can sue him and then the courts can figure it out.

> When you're firing thousands of people, some due diligence is in order, no

Not when those people work for the government. This is one of the few things I agree with FDR on: the nature of democracy means that government employees must have less employment protections than private sector workers, not more. Even if you have an expansive view of what the constitution allows in terms of Congress providing for independent executive branch agencies, at most that means the President can’t ignore Congress’s intent in funding certain programs. But that still doesn’t allow the bureaucracy invoking HR rules to protect itself against the actions of the elected branches. That effectively gives a small class of people more say over the operation of the government than the electorate as a whole.

[–] xg15 2 days ago
> The President is the chief executive in charge of government operations, not the courts. If he’s acting outside his authority, you can sue him and then the courts can figure it out.

I love this. Yes, and then several years later, the courts can declare his order was in fact illegal when it's already far, far too late to reverse any of it.

That kind of "oversight" is no oversight at all. If you believe this is just how things should be, then you want a king with unrestricted power, not a president.

[–] rayiner 2 days ago
That’s just how litigation works. If the issue comes down to the payment of money, courts assume that it can be sorted out eventually by ordering money to be paid or returned. The government can destroy your business with an illegal regulation, and they don’t have to ask courts for permission first. I’m such cases, you probably won’t even get money back from the government. It would be bizarre to impose a higher standard of oversight for the government to restructure its own operations than for the government to regulate private conduct.

The President isn’t a “king” he’s a CEO. A CEO doesn’t need permission from a court to spend the company’s own money or to take executive actions about the company’s own operations.

[–] eszed 2 days ago
That's such a total misunderstanding of the US constitution that I'll assume you're not a USA-ian, and explain it in simple terms. In the USA the people are sovereign; they delegate their power to Congress, who are first-among-equals within the three branches of government; the executive branch's role is to "faithfully execute" the laws that Congress passes. So, yeah: a president "behaving like a CEO" and deciding on his own how to allocate money is patently and obviously un-Constitutional.

Now, the US legislature has, in recent decades, delegated so many of its prerogatives, and overlooked so much executive overreach, that your misappropriation is completely understandable. In fact, though, the current situation is exactly what the framers of the US Constitution most feared. (You can read their discussions at the time collected in a volume called "The Federalist Papers".) Their inability to devise a system to meet a threat they fully anticipated argues against their much-heralded "genius".

Total side-note: CEO as sovereign within "their" company is, arguably, also a perverse interpretation of the US corporate governance model. Feel free to argue that point without me, HN - I know that's just how that works nowadays - but it's totally wrong to import that model into government, where it's explicitly not intended.

[–] hackingonempty 2 days ago
> Their inability to devise a system to meet a threat they fully anticipated argues against their much-heralded "genius".

It's like byzantine faults, no system can protect you if you don't have some minimum of correctly functioning legislators, judges, and executives.

[–] hollerith 1 day ago
>That's such a total misunderstanding of the US constitution that I'll assume you're not [an American], and explain it in simple terms.

Not only is he an American, but also he routinely makes arguments to American Federal judges very similar to the argument he is making here or at least he is a colleague and coworker of people who do.

[–] xorcist 1 day ago
A CEO can absolutely not spend the company's money as it was his own. That would be a breach of trust or embezzlement and outright criminal. You can bound by budget and fidicuary duty, and answer to the owners or their board of directors. People regularly get jail time for this type of crime.
[–] xtiansimon 2 days ago
> “The President isn’t a “king” he’s a CEO.”

Given the Supreme Court decisions in Citizens United, Loper Bright, and Hobby Lobby I find this notion obscene.

[–] hvb2 2 days ago
> But that still doesn’t allow the bureaucracy invoking HR rules to protect itself against the actions of the elected branches.

It's not hr writing the rules here. It's them enforcing what they were given.

Also, they're not saying he cannot do what they want to do. It's that the law prescribes that certain things need to happen first.

Those rules were given to them by elected people in Congress.

Edit:

To add

> But the President doesn’t need a court ruling giving permission before he exercises his powers.

The system was created with the assumption that the president would act cautiously and judiciously. This administration doesn't care about whether something is lawful. When you act fast enough the damage will be done before your called out on it.

South Korea saw a president declare martial law and the other branches held him accountable very quickly. I am not convinced the US in the current state would.

[–] rayiner 2 days ago
> The system was created with the assumption that the president would act cautiously and judiciously

Not at all. The founders were focused on having a vigorous executive who could “just do things.” https://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed70.asp. The system they created is not based on the premise of cautious bureaucracy. It was based on having frequent elections that would empower a vigorous president and political appointees to carry out what they had campaigned on.

The founders were men of action. They would be horrified by how our government today is run by lawyers through APA litigation. The HR-ification of the American government is a mid-20th century invention.

[–] hollerith 1 day ago
APA == the Administrative Procedure Act, enacted by Congress in 1946.

An unreliable source writes, "litigants frequently use the Administrative Procedure Act to argue that an agency acted in an arbitrary and capricious manner, failed to follow required notice-and-comment procedures, or exceeded its statutory authority."

[–] khriss 2 days ago
> They would be horrified by how our government today

100%, just not in the direction you think. They would be apalled at Trump's blatant, in your face corruption all while the MAGA base cheers him on.

[–] tacitusarc 2 days ago
> The system was created with the assumption that the president would act cautiously and judiciously

I do not believe this is true historically

[–] vintermann 2 days ago
A common problem in systems where two branches of government have equal claim to popular mandate.
[–] eudamoniac 1 day ago
The common presumption that when the electorate expresses their will to change things, the elected will still not be able to change anything due to entrenched bureaucracy, and this is good, is one of the reasons Trump won twice.
[–] nullocator 2 days ago
Are you calling congress "HR"? Congress created USAID, and did not approve it being destroyed.
[–] rayiner 2 days ago
No, I’m talking about the article, which is focused on literal HR rules. USAID still exists on paper but Congress reallocated its budget to the State Department.
[–] khriss 2 days ago
So, per your interpretation, the president can just ignore any law created by Congress by simply allocating zero funds to any agency carrying out the law?

USAID was created by Congress when it formally codified USAID into statute through the Foreign Affairs Reform and Restructuring Act in 1998.

So, how is the president allowed to simply ignore a law passed by Congress?

[–] zzrrt 2 days ago
> on March 20, two days after Rubio placed Lewin atop the USAID hierarchy

> By March 26, the emails show, Lewin still hadn’t accepted the job offer, and had not filed his OF-306, the federal government's standard pre-employment background screening form; without this document, a federal agency cannot lawfully issue a final job offer or consummate an appointment

> A detailing agreement between the GSA and USAID dated February 14—two weeks after Lewin says he began at USAID—specifes that “commencement of the detail is contingent upon the Detailee’s successful adjudication and receipt of any necessary security clearances and other pre-employment screening required by USAID.

More serious issues than "HR" should have barred him from working, for at least some of the time he did.

Even if it was legal for Trump or Rubio to shut it down, they still have to do it through authorized agents and legal processes. If a "police officer" conducted a search without paperwork on file that establishes their authority to search, it would be illegal, right?

[–] jacquesm 2 days ago
That's how it should be. But they counted on the courts being slower to catch up with stuff than that they could destroy it and by and large that proved to be correct. The checks and balances in the USA are not prepared to deal with people at this level of power that are as malicious as this. The founders more or less left that as an exercise for the future to figure out and may have presaged such a thing happening in some of their writings.
[–] rayiner 2 days ago
> Even if it was legal for Trump or Rubio to shut it down, they still have to do it through authorized agents and legal processes.

Yes, but the paperwork that decides who is the President or his appointee’s lawful agent is different than the civil service paperwork for employment. Lewin was appointed as an SGE. This article is about the HR details of his internal transfer into USAID. But there is no rule that says someone must be an employee of an agency to assist in shutting down the agency under delegated authority from the cabinet official that oversees the agency.

> If a "police officer" conducted a search without paperwork on file that establishes their authority to search, it would be illegal, right?

Yes. But if he was transferred within the department from vice into homicide and hadn’t done all his paperwork yet, would that be illegal? And also, doing a search is a potential impingement on individual rights. Very different from a doing an internal reorganization within a department. If a CEO pulls in someone from one department to clean house in another department, how much HR paperwork do you really need?

[–] zzrrt 1 day ago
I think my understanding of the paperwork and authority has grown, and I can agree with some of what you're saying, but I think there's still a story here.

> But there is no rule that says someone must be an employee of an agency to assist in shutting down the agency under delegated authority from the cabinet official that oversees the agency.

So the delegated authority from Rubio is what made it legal for him to shut things down? He wasn't appointed and delegated until March 18th. He started there on January 28th. Sometime around January 30th he participated in ordering the acting administrator to shut down communications systems and terminate top officials. He was working there for 7 weeks as a non-employee, non-appointee, non-delegate, forcing the hand of the administrator who is supposed to be Senate-confirmed.

Even if you fall back on his detailing from GSA, it's dated Feb 14th and is "contingent upon the Detailee’s successful adjudication and receipt of... pre-employment screening required by USAID" -- the screening he did not complete.

Do you consider shutting down the agency a special activity, distinct from working within it at any other time? It seems a strange qualification to put on. Are the requirements for staffing looser if the official intends to close the agency?

> if he was transferred within the department from vice into homicide

Then he'd still be an authorized police officer, I presume. You argued based on explicitly delegated authority from the USAID administrator or cabinet official, not that being a GSA employee meant he could go to any agency without further authority. Per above, he wasn't immediately given the delegated authority, and even his detailing seems on shaky grounds.

> doing a search is a potential impingement on individual rights

Well, yes, but it's also explicitly in the law that there are procedures to authorize a search, same as the law says there are procedures to change staff, spend or not spend funds, or shut down an agency. If anything, the thousands of fired USAID employees and tens of thousands of USAID beneficiaries had their individual rights impinged by the "internal reorganization" (but I admit, probably not Constitutionally-guaranteed rights.)

Why do 2/3 of the law professors quoted say he should have been Senate-confirmed? Maybe they're biased or were fed the story and reacted without much research. It's at least a flaw of the article that it doesn't clearly explain why a COO would need to be confirmed. Maybe the professors consider Rubio's delegation to be making Lewin the de facto administrator without the required confirmation.

Anyway, he probably became fully authorized on March 18th. I don't know if he actually succeeded at anything notable before then, but he was trying to shut things down and coerce the legal administrator while, at best, a provisional detailee. I think that should be as disturbingly sloppy as sending out a police officer with inadequate legal certification on file, or performing a search with only an unrecorded verbal assent from a judge. In some hand-wavy way, any of these cases are "authorized" (e.g. I presume Rubio or Trump would have approved of anything he did), but we should expect a stricter documented standard in full compliance with best-practice procedures. For 7 weeks he was below even your bar of "delegated authority from the cabinet official", let alone some experts' claims that he should have been confirmed.

P.S. I think rayiner doesn't oppose Jack Smith's appointment, but I assume anyone else defending this also supports Smith's appointment and opposes the court meddling with it... if a president doesn't need anyone's permission to staff his branch however he likes.

[–] eudamoniac 1 day ago
I don't understand the outrage about filling out a form. It's not an argument from any principle. That the president could not exercise his will because someone down the chain didn't fill out a form that otherwise serves no real purpose and would be read by no one of import sounds like a Kafkaesque nightmare.
[–] maxerickson 2 days ago
So there's not like statutory rules governing the mechanism by which the President makes that guy his avatar (not Rubio, the guy in the article)?

If he ordered a dog to dismantle USAID, would the ineffectiveness of that simply be due to the dog being incompetent and not be legally challengeable?

[–] rayiner 2 days ago
The Administrator of USAID is a presidentially appointed and senate confirmed position. Under the Vacancies Reform Act the President can appoint another Senate confirmed official from anywhere else in the government to fill that spot for up to 210 days. Trump appointed Rubio to that role.

An acting administrator or agency head can then generally “detail” an employee from anywhere else in the government to serve as a deputy in a temporary basis, which Rubio did here. Agency heads generally have broad discretion to hire their deputies.

[–] insane_dreamer 2 days ago
Only Congress had the power. But Congress didn’t call the Executive branch on it, so … here we are.
[–] rayiner 2 days ago
That’s not quite accurate. While Congress didn’t abolish USAID, it did enact appropriations bills that transferred the funding to the State Department. https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/4779

USAID still exists on paper. But under the current appropriations bills, the funding is allocated to the State Department.

[–] lesuorac 2 days ago
[–] rayiner 2 days ago
It was incorporated into the consolidated 2026 appropriations bill that was enacted: https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/119/hr4779
[–] paulryanrogers 2 days ago
Most DOGE activity was in 2025, no?
[–] rayiner 2 days ago
There was a recession bill passed in 2025 July 2025 for already appropriated monies.

Moreover, the impoundment rules don’t require congress to act first before the president acts. They require the money to be spent, but if the budgetary authority is provided over a year it’s hard to say when the president must spend that money within the year. (Unless there’s specific requirements in the statute.)

[–] paulryanrogers 1 day ago
DOGE's mandate expired July 4th 2025.

It's absurd to argue the executive can intentionally delay and shuffle money earmarked specifically for certain purposes, like USAID. Why not just give the executive all power over the Treasury? Why have Congress at all?

[–] insane_dreamer 2 days ago
That was only passed a year _after_ DOGE had already gutted USAID entirely, so the Executive branch was acting outside the authority of Congress (or in contravention with Congress) when it gutted USAID in early 2025.
[–] rayiner 2 days ago
There was an bill rescinding already appropriated 2025 USAID funding in July 2025: https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/house-bill/4

There was a few months of overhang, but the Supreme Court ruled that the administration had to pay out billions of dollars that were already allocated to contracts during that period.

[–] jeremyjh 2 days ago
"A few months of overhang" was thousands of people starving or dying of malaria. Also, they didn't rescind all the funding, $4B was just left to expire.
[–] insane_dreamer 2 days ago
But again DOGE acted before that was in place. All I’m saying is I expect a future DOJ to find legal grounds for going ofter those involved for exceeding their authority.
[–] rayiner 2 days ago
What makes you think the impoundment process requires the executive to wait until Congress acts? Impoundment is a rule that says “you have to spend this money.” The appropriations bills give budget authority over a year or multiple years. Why can’t the executive act first then ask congress to rescind money he isn’t going to spend for the rest of the year?
[–] secretsatan 2 days ago
I think appointing people who absolutely should not be doing the jobs they are appointed to is a way of sidestepping all law. They want to destroy all government and what better way to do it than through sheer incompetence with a layer of plausible deniability.

There are other theories of course.

[–] rayiner 2 days ago
I guess your point of view makes sense if you think of “government” as some self-sustaining organism where voting is supposed to nudge the ship but can’t steer it. Fortunately, that isn’t the government the founders created.