And nothing I've said here is an original thought or piece of insight.
[–] Gareth321 2 days ago
[–] radicalbyte 1 day ago
a) We do test on terminally ill people, but after testing in other models. b) Thalidomide was all roses compared to the horrors you can inflict. c) Profit-driven industry makes extremely perverse incentives.
Still I do come down more on your side of the argument, and we have historically made massive leaps doing some horrific things.
I wonder if we can get better models based off of human cell-lines / tissues? Like CRISPR did?
[–] fao_ 1 day ago
Just to expand on this for the audience. Even a perfectly reasonable synthesis of MPPP, a synthetic opioid, can produce MPTP[1], which will destroy all of your dopaminergic neurons and give you permanent brain damage. This was discovered entirely by accident. Or, Karen Wetterhahn, who got a single drop of organic mercury on her gloved hand and spent the next year suffering from her brain rotting from the inside out.
This only barely scratches the surface from what I can remember, but there's absolutely, unambiguously a lot of good reasons why these barriers are there. These are rules that have been put down through blood and tears.
[–] arcticbull 11 hours ago
People frequently don't realize that thalidomide is a very good chemotherapy drug that's back on the market with the appropriate category X designation.
It treats multiple myeloma, graft-vs-host disease, various HIV associated disease and Kaposi's sarcoma, Leprosy and potentially TB.
[–] ch4s3 1 day ago
People who are specialists in something other than economics often make this argument but it's often a very weak argument, IMO. Liability means that you are incentivized to be quite cautious in pushing a potentially dangerous product. Particularly with pharmaceuticals a class action can be easily and successfully argued in court. Moreover, a relatively small number of dangerous flops will tank your reputation with consumers. I would also add that you can't make any more money selling drugs to people you have killed.
The worst money incentive for drug manufacturers is that market forces push them towards recurring treatments for diseases that effect a large number of people. However that seems less than perverse to me.
[–] jmcqk6 1 day ago
That assumes that people are playing a long game. If you're looking for your payday and exit, and there are many people out there who are only looking for the next payday, this argument falls apart.
> Moreover, a relatively small number of dangerous flops will tank your reputation with consumers.
One success the anti-vax people have achieved is to muddy the waters around this. Your public reputation is no longer correlated to actual performance.
> Liability means that you are incentivized to be quite cautious in pushing a potentially dangerous product
There's a long list of people throughout history who do not have this caution at all.
You seem to be taking a theoretical economics approach. Reality is different. People are not perfectly rational actors, and consequences are not consistent.
Look at what actually happens in reality.
[–] estearum 1 day ago
Payday and exit is pretty hard in biotech as you need to conjure up billions of dollars in capital, which doesn't often flow to people who payday-and-exit.
What happens in reality is that people try really hard to make safe and effective drugs, they mostly fail, and the ones that are approved are generally safe and effective.
[–] ch4s3 16 hours ago
What are you talking about? Shareholders are looking for sustainable projections of growth. Killing a bunch of people will tank your stock which is how executives get paid. You really need to think beyond their first thought o nstuff like this.
> There's a long list of people throughout history who do not have this caution at all.
None of them run pharmaceutical companies.
>You seem to be taking a theoretical economics approach. Reality is different
No I'm describing reality and you're arguing from populism.
[–] fc417fc802 15 hours ago
Then why are there so many examples of PE destroying things to make a (relatively) quick buck?
[–] ch4s3 11 hours ago
PE is short for PRIVATE equity, there are no public shareholders in PE, no share price. When I critique that people here often don't understand basic things about the economy this is what I mean.
[–] anthuswilliams 1 day ago
d) elderly and infirm people are in a weakened state and so are less likely to recover from accidental complications your drug might introduce
e) sickness is itself a confounder for the toxicology effect of a drug. Suppose you take a drug and your liver shuts down - did the drug cause it or was it your underlying illness? This can lead to programs being prematurely shut down and actually prevent the development of treatments that might have gone on to succeed.
[–] estearum 1 day ago
You misunderstand how hard it is to pull signal from a drug being put into a human body, which is why we need large numbers of people who meet extremely narrow criteria (and don't have things like a terminal cancer).
Your latter idea is a good one, and hopefully something AI will help with. As you imply: we will know empirically when it's ready because trial failure rates will trend toward zero. Today we're closer to 90% failures and not even clearly trending in the correct direction.
You're aware that, as a healthy volunteer, you could go sign up for a Phase 1 study today, right? You can even earn a pretty penny doing so.
[–] louiereederson 1 day ago
[–] taneq 2 days ago
[–] YeGoblynQueenne 1 day ago
[–] danielmarkbruce 1 day ago
It really is hard to see AI improving the trial process meaningfully. We are more likely to see progress with better trial design and regulatory regimes.
[–] DrewADesign 5 hours ago
[–] dekhn 1 day ago
[–] missedthecue 1 day ago
But yes, it was very effective as a treatment. When it was approved for cancer use, we actually had no idea how it worked, only that it worked really well. Thalidomide has saved a few orders of magnitude more lives than it took/damaged.
[–] well_ackshually 1 day ago
The amount of disdain you have for human life when it's past an accepted state of freshness is disgusting.
[–] womble2 1 day ago
[–] strbean 1 day ago
[–] danielmarkbruce 1 day ago
[–] elcritch 1 day ago
Prior to AlphaFold that was the state of predicting protein structures. That model seemingly figured out the "language" used by biology for making protein structures from DNA. It's not unreasonable to believe there's a good chance something similar exists for protein interactions.
Even if it was coarse grained but could eliminate drugs with high likelihood of unfavorable reactions it'd still be valuable. Still not sure LLMs would be ideal for that work.
[–] danielmarkbruce 1 day ago
[–] elcritch 13 hours ago
However the majority of a protein’s structure is functionally inactive. Only a relatively small region tends to be active and affect rate kinetics of various chemical reactions. Alternatively similar interactions affect the mechanical properties of other proteins.
We also know many of the pathways for most key biological processes. Of course we’re no where near simulating an entire human, however we could feasibly filter drug candidate drugs for strong affects on key biological pathways.
That’s not too different in a broad since than using surrogates like mice to test for toxicity across highly conserved pathways in metabolism, reproduction, liver function, etc. It’s a much more tractable problem as well.
We have a lot of experimental data for the effect of many proteins on important chemical pathways. Presumably drug companies have more information on how many drug candidates react with or interfere with key pathways.
My conjecture would be that we wouldn’t need fine grained interactions but that even coarse grained filtering could be valuable. As in sure drug XYZ is great for binding to serotonin but it also has high affinity to key stomach proteins. That could avoid expensive studies just to find out a promising anti-depression drug causes severe gastrointestinal issues in a lot of patients.
Even better if we could use genome variations to protein structure variations which could help differentiate between subsets of patients with or without severe side effects.
[–] danielmarkbruce 5 hours ago
Honestly once you go through all the details... drug discovery feels like the one of the overhyped and unlikely to work areas for AI. Other areas of medicine (like diagnosis) are already seeing pretty good results, and anecdotally seems to work well and tends to fit within the realm of text analysis where most of the AI gains have happened.
[–] elcritch 3 hours ago
Another bigger impact might come by making regular researchers, lab workers, etc all more efficient by making data analysis more efficient or creating better tools. Possibly with less errors. That'd of course require big pharma to adopt them. We'll see on that point.
Further, [we are getting much better at simulating drug interactions.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41155903/) I strongly suspect AI will offer new probabilistic models to funnel novel drugs into more targeted trials which are much more likely to succeed. If we had 90% certainty of success and high certainty of lower adverse reactions I think we could allow much less stringent human trials. That means much lower cost and much faster turn-around.