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points by danielmarkbruce 2 days ago | 0 comments
This is a largely agreed upon problem. What isn't clear is why it seems to get sidestepped in discussion so frequently. No one knows how a molecule will interact with human biology. It can't be simulated computationally to generate data (too slow), there isn't a lot of data in the grand scheme of things, so you can't train a model to actually predict the interaction of a molecule with a human.

And nothing I've said here is an original thought or piece of insight.

[–] Gareth321 2 days ago
One might argue that we have calibrated drug safety to such a high degree that the aggregate negative social impacts are far higher than the costs of side effects. Of course we don’t want another thalidomide catastrophe but I think there are large potential test groups to mine who are much less sensitive to the risks. For example, the elderly and those with terminal diagnoses. Right now we only permit drug testing in very limited cases for the latter group, and only when the treatment is related to their terminal diagnosis. I’m seeing older people taking all kinds of experimental anti-aging drugs right now, either off label, or novel. We’re not collecting any of this data empirically because what they’re doing is not legal.

Further, [we are getting much better at simulating drug interactions.](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/41155903/) I strongly suspect AI will offer new probabilistic models to funnel novel drugs into more targeted trials which are much more likely to succeed. If we had 90% certainty of success and high certainty of lower adverse reactions I think we could allow much less stringent human trials. That means much lower cost and much faster turn-around.

[–] radicalbyte 1 day ago
My wife is a doctorate in pharmacology, I made exactly this argument to her but she dismantled it pretty quickly.

a) We do test on terminally ill people, but after testing in other models. b) Thalidomide was all roses compared to the horrors you can inflict. c) Profit-driven industry makes extremely perverse incentives.

Still I do come down more on your side of the argument, and we have historically made massive leaps doing some horrific things.

I wonder if we can get better models based off of human cell-lines / tissues? Like CRISPR did?

[–] fao_ 1 day ago
> b) Thalidomide was all roses compared to the horrors you can inflict.

Just to expand on this for the audience. Even a perfectly reasonable synthesis of MPPP, a synthetic opioid, can produce MPTP[1], which will destroy all of your dopaminergic neurons and give you permanent brain damage. This was discovered entirely by accident. Or, Karen Wetterhahn, who got a single drop of organic mercury on her gloved hand and spent the next year suffering from her brain rotting from the inside out.

This only barely scratches the surface from what I can remember, but there's absolutely, unambiguously a lot of good reasons why these barriers are there. These are rules that have been put down through blood and tears.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPTP

[–] arcticbull 11 hours ago
> Thalidomide was all roses compared to the horrors you can inflict

People frequently don't realize that thalidomide is a very good chemotherapy drug that's back on the market with the appropriate category X designation.

It treats multiple myeloma, graft-vs-host disease, various HIV associated disease and Kaposi's sarcoma, Leprosy and potentially TB.

[–] ch4s3 1 day ago
> Profit-driven industry makes extremely perverse incentives

People who are specialists in something other than economics often make this argument but it's often a very weak argument, IMO. Liability means that you are incentivized to be quite cautious in pushing a potentially dangerous product. Particularly with pharmaceuticals a class action can be easily and successfully argued in court. Moreover, a relatively small number of dangerous flops will tank your reputation with consumers. I would also add that you can't make any more money selling drugs to people you have killed.

The worst money incentive for drug manufacturers is that market forces push them towards recurring treatments for diseases that effect a large number of people. However that seems less than perverse to me.

[–] jmcqk6 1 day ago
> I would also add that you can't make any more money selling drugs to people you have killed.

That assumes that people are playing a long game. If you're looking for your payday and exit, and there are many people out there who are only looking for the next payday, this argument falls apart.

> Moreover, a relatively small number of dangerous flops will tank your reputation with consumers.

One success the anti-vax people have achieved is to muddy the waters around this. Your public reputation is no longer correlated to actual performance.

> Liability means that you are incentivized to be quite cautious in pushing a potentially dangerous product

There's a long list of people throughout history who do not have this caution at all.

You seem to be taking a theoretical economics approach. Reality is different. People are not perfectly rational actors, and consequences are not consistent.

Look at what actually happens in reality.

[–] estearum 1 day ago
The antivax people are still fringe and by and large people trust that the drugs they take are safe and effective.

Payday and exit is pretty hard in biotech as you need to conjure up billions of dollars in capital, which doesn't often flow to people who payday-and-exit.

What happens in reality is that people try really hard to make safe and effective drugs, they mostly fail, and the ones that are approved are generally safe and effective.

[–] ch4s3 16 hours ago
>That assumes that people are playing a long game

What are you talking about? Shareholders are looking for sustainable projections of growth. Killing a bunch of people will tank your stock which is how executives get paid. You really need to think beyond their first thought o nstuff like this.

> There's a long list of people throughout history who do not have this caution at all.

None of them run pharmaceutical companies.

>You seem to be taking a theoretical economics approach. Reality is different

No I'm describing reality and you're arguing from populism.

[–] fc417fc802 15 hours ago
> Shareholders are looking for sustainable projections of growth.

Then why are there so many examples of PE destroying things to make a (relatively) quick buck?

[–] ch4s3 11 hours ago
> so many examples of PE destroying

PE is short for PRIVATE equity, there are no public shareholders in PE, no share price. When I critique that people here often don't understand basic things about the economy this is what I mean.

[–] anthuswilliams 1 day ago
I agree with your wife, and I would also add:

d) elderly and infirm people are in a weakened state and so are less likely to recover from accidental complications your drug might introduce

e) sickness is itself a confounder for the toxicology effect of a drug. Suppose you take a drug and your liver shuts down - did the drug cause it or was it your underlying illness? This can lead to programs being prematurely shut down and actually prevent the development of treatments that might have gone on to succeed.

[–] estearum 1 day ago
Testing a drug in a terminally ill person for something other than their illness is not going to produce meaningful data.

You misunderstand how hard it is to pull signal from a drug being put into a human body, which is why we need large numbers of people who meet extremely narrow criteria (and don't have things like a terminal cancer).

Your latter idea is a good one, and hopefully something AI will help with. As you imply: we will know empirically when it's ready because trial failure rates will trend toward zero. Today we're closer to 90% failures and not even clearly trending in the correct direction.

You're aware that, as a healthy volunteer, you could go sign up for a Phase 1 study today, right? You can even earn a pretty penny doing so.

[–] louiereederson 1 day ago
Besides moral qualms I think it could be difficult establishing a representative baseline with the elderly and terminally ill
[–] taneq 2 days ago
“The elderly” might be much less sensitive to risks but it may still be an issue if the experimental drug you gave Grandma turns her into soup.
[–] YeGoblynQueenne 1 day ago
Why? Two birds, one stone: reduce care costs, feed poor people.
[–] danielmarkbruce 1 day ago
It's quite a leap to go from the study you linked to thinking AI will create models that will be useful for new trials. The big leaps in AI have required enormous amounts of data. There is no such analogous data sets in biology and no foreseeable way to get it.

It really is hard to see AI improving the trial process meaningfully. We are more likely to see progress with better trial design and regulatory regimes.

[–] DrewADesign 5 hours ago
You see, the only reason our society’s systems aren’t perfectly efficient, logical, and smooth, is because a software developer hadn’t briefly mulled over their challenges with a few casual thought experiments.
[–] dekhn 1 day ago
I just have to point out: thalidomide is still prescribed as a drug for cancer and is very effective.
[–] missedthecue 1 day ago
They use more sophisticated domides based off Thalidomide these days (2nd gen Lenalidomide, 3rd gen Pomalidomide, and next gen Mezidomide is in trials).

But yes, it was very effective as a treatment. When it was approved for cancer use, we actually had no idea how it worked, only that it worked really well. Thalidomide has saved a few orders of magnitude more lives than it took/damaged.

[–] dekhn 1 day ago
Thalidomide is still prescribed.
[–] well_ackshually 1 day ago
> For example, the elderly and those with terminal diagnoses.

The amount of disdain you have for human life when it's past an accepted state of freshness is disgusting.

[–] womble2 1 day ago
its pretty obvious why that gets sidestepped isnt it? There are multiple companies trying to go public with trillion dollar valuations on the premise that AI will change everything, it would be mad if they weren't spending hundreds of millions to billions in shaping public opinion that everything can be solved with AI.
[–] strbean 1 day ago
Anthropic and others already have "AI-powered wet labs". Not sure to what extent they are able to automate lab operations. I recall seeing a post about specifically running automated in-vitro experiments controlled by agents, though. I don't think it's being sidestepped, I think it is being handled. Or at least they are trying; maybe the labs operate at a "Theranos-spraying-blood-everywhere" level.
[–] danielmarkbruce 1 day ago
Drug trials in humans.
[–] elcritch 1 day ago
> No one knows how a molecule will interact with human biology. It can't be simulated computationally to generate data (too slow),

Prior to AlphaFold that was the state of predicting protein structures. That model seemingly figured out the "language" used by biology for making protein structures from DNA. It's not unreasonable to believe there's a good chance something similar exists for protein interactions.

Even if it was coarse grained but could eliminate drugs with high likelihood of unfavorable reactions it'd still be valuable. Still not sure LLMs would be ideal for that work.

[–] danielmarkbruce 1 day ago
Alphafold solved a waayyy narrower problem that had lots of experimental structural data. Guessing how a drug interacts with an entire human is a whole different scale of thing. Even knowing protein interactions wouldn't tell you how those interactions propagate through an entire human system or whether a drug will be safe and/or effective.
[–] elcritch 13 hours ago
If you phrase it in that way it seems intractable.

However the majority of a protein’s structure is functionally inactive. Only a relatively small region tends to be active and affect rate kinetics of various chemical reactions. Alternatively similar interactions affect the mechanical properties of other proteins.

We also know many of the pathways for most key biological processes. Of course we’re no where near simulating an entire human, however we could feasibly filter drug candidate drugs for strong affects on key biological pathways.

That’s not too different in a broad since than using surrogates like mice to test for toxicity across highly conserved pathways in metabolism, reproduction, liver function, etc. It’s a much more tractable problem as well.

We have a lot of experimental data for the effect of many proteins on important chemical pathways. Presumably drug companies have more information on how many drug candidates react with or interfere with key pathways.

My conjecture would be that we wouldn’t need fine grained interactions but that even coarse grained filtering could be valuable. As in sure drug XYZ is great for binding to serotonin but it also has high affinity to key stomach proteins. That could avoid expensive studies just to find out a promising anti-depression drug causes severe gastrointestinal issues in a lot of patients.

Even better if we could use genome variations to protein structure variations which could help differentiate between subsets of patients with or without severe side effects.

[–] danielmarkbruce 5 hours ago
Phase 1 isn't the big problem. It's phase 2 and phase 3 where drugs fail hard and the trials cost the most and take the longest.

Honestly once you go through all the details... drug discovery feels like the one of the overhyped and unlikely to work areas for AI. Other areas of medicine (like diagnosis) are already seeing pretty good results, and anecdotally seems to work well and tends to fit within the realm of text analysis where most of the AI gains have happened.

[–] elcritch 3 hours ago
True being limited to phase 1 would be the bigger limitation.

Another bigger impact might come by making regular researchers, lab workers, etc all more efficient by making data analysis more efficient or creating better tools. Possibly with less errors. That'd of course require big pharma to adopt them. We'll see on that point.

[–] machiaweliczny 1 day ago
Anyone knows it Nautilus Biotechnology could really be this useful for decoding exactly that?