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points by coopykins 1 day ago | 0 comments
It's become a real risk to take a train in Spain. Two severe accidents in the same year on what's typically considered the safest transport method.

I can't remember the last time I read good news related to my country.

[–] acchow 1 day ago
There were 222 pedestrian urban-area deaths in Spain in 2025.

There is a risk of just being outside. Usually due to cars.

[–] sfn42 1 day ago
That's not really fair though. Almost all pedestrians who get hit by cars could have avoided the accident if they were observant and took responsibility for their own safety. People just walk out in front of cars, assuming they will stop, buried in their phone with earplugs in.

I'm not saying it's not the drivers' fault, of course it is and it should continue to be the driver's responsibility to avoid hitting pedestrians. But the roads are full of idiots, scrolling TikTok while driving, driving drunk, high, looking more at their passenger than the road etc. If you routinely put your safety in their hands then you're likely to end up in an accident eventually.

If you take responsibility for your own safety, look both ways before(and during) crossing a road, make sure the driver has seen you and is stopping before walking in front of a car etc then you are almost entirely safe from these kinds of accidents. Very few people get hit by cars without first walking out in front of a moving car.

You can't take responsibility for your own safety in a train. At least not beyond choosing the car you're in.

[–] financetechbro 1 day ago
You’re making these claims and providing zero data to back them up
[–] jazzyjackson 1 day ago
The claim that most people hit by cars were in the street?
[–] sfn42 23 hours ago
My claims are self-evident. Anyone with any common sense can tell this is just a description of reality.

Cars don't just appear out of nowhere. They are for the most part highly predictable.

I should add the caveat that I am specifically talking about Western countries where traffic is quite orderly. In Thailand we had to cross multi-lane roads by just walking into traffic while traffic weaved around us, they wouldn't stop for us even at crossings unless there were lights. In this situation you don't have much of a choice. Here in Norway, cars will stop for you so there is no need to walk out until you are sure the car is stopping. Some times if I'm crossing a multi-lane road I'll walk across one lane then stop and make sure the car coming in the next lane is also stopping for me. Some times they don't. I look both ways even on one way streets.

I've had many situations where drivers clearly don't notice me, and since I didn't walk in front of them I'm fine. Also had a few situations where someone I'm with walks out and I pull them back just in time to watch a car/bus pass right in front of them.

[–] NoLinkToMe 1 day ago
Doing anything is a risk. The salient thing is relative risk. Even with record levels of train accidents it’s still the safest way to travel.

The bodycount sits around 100 this year for trains and 1775 last year for cars.

Even correcting for distance travelled it’s still way more safe.

[–] renehsz 1 day ago
Tell that to the dozens of families who lost loved ones today! At least 68 people (and still counting) lost their lives. Ambitious, loving, caring human beings, who died completely unnecessarily! No excuse is good enough to justify that.

This type of accident is particularly unacceptable because it's so preventable! I'm not going to speculate on the causes before the official report is out. But a collision between two trains is not that hard to prevent with a train protection system. And if that system (or a component of it) crashes (or malfunctions in a fail-safe way), but operations should still continue, then there need to be safe fallback protocols in place that everyone is trained to follow.

One such rule might be, for instance, that following an electronic interlocking failure causing axle counter sections to be reset, meaning track vacancy cannot be proven, track sections must be swept by trains that may only run on sight at ~40km/h max.

"Someone made a mistake" is never an acceptable excuse. That's what we had to learn in aviation a long time ago. Nobody goes to work wanting to cause a fatal accident. The train dispatcher(s), driver(s), and whoever else might have been involved in this, (most likely) did not intend to cause this. But it is almost always a combination of bad procedures, normalization of deviance, lack of safety culture, bad training, lack of regulatory oversight, and of course inadequate technical equipment and safety systems, that together lead to fatal accidents.

Accidents like this one are fully preventable, there's no excuse, but that doesn't mean we should blame a particular person. Instead, it is the entire system, which is supposed to have multiple redundant layers of safety, that failed us. Investigators are going to come up with many recommendations to prevent similar accidents in the future. Let's hope (and make our voices heard) that these recommendations actually get implemented as well.

[–] NoLinkToMe 21 hours ago
> No excuse is good enough to justify that.

There was no excuse at all in my post, not sure what you're replying to.

It was only pointed out that despite failures in train systems, it's still safer than driving a car.

> One such rule might be, for instance, that following an electronic interlocking failure causing axle counter sections to be reset, meaning track vacancy cannot be proven, track sections must be swept by trains that may only run on sight at ~40km/h max.

All the rules you spoke of by the way were already in-place, but overruled. The protocol wasn't followed. The driver was supposed to go at 40, it's the protocol, but the rail operator instructed to continue at normal speed. When the train driver asked 'at normal speed?' the operator confirmed. The normal speed on that track is 200km/h by the way.

[–] renehsz 15 hours ago
There is no doubt whatsoever that trains are far safer than cars. But often that fact is used as an excuse to not invest in safety. "We don't need to do anything to make thing X safer, because look at that other thing Y that people do which is way more dangerous." (I assume you didn't mean it that way, but some people really do make this argument.)

Human lives matter in absolute numbers, and we should strive to increase safety wherever possible with reasonable effort. Railways in some countries still have some very low-hanging fruit!

The aviation industry has shown that safety as the number one priority does not have to be prohibitively expensive. Layers of redundancy, excellent training, and very good investigations and changes based on their recommendations are what keeps the flying public safe.

Accidents still happen in aviation, but we're at a point of diminishing returns where increasing safety is getting quite difficult. When an aircrew encounters a problem, they can't just stop the plane mid-air to figure things out. The plane has to land, no matter what. That is inherently more risky.

Contrast that with a train, which can more or less just stop wherever it is when something goes wrong. This allows for building a lot of fail-safe/passively safe systems. When there's a problem, just halt operations and take your time to figure things out. Good procedures and adherence to them are still absolutely necessary, but at least there's usually no actual time pressure (only perceived) and malfunctions rarely pose an actual risk if handled correctly.

What aviation has also shown us is that accident investigations need to be 100% honest about underlying causes. "This guy made a mistake, too bad" is never ever an acceptable reason. We have to dig deeper.

People will always make mistakes. But how was such a simple mistake allowed to have such dire consequences? Were there not enough layers of redundancy? Was the training inadequate? Were the rules and procedures inadequate, underspecified, or unclear? Was there a company culture of bending the rules to get the job done? Was there a general lack of safety culture and incident management? Etc.pp.

> All the rules you spoke of by the way were already in-place

I had guessed that was the case, but didn't want to state it definitively, as I'm not familiar with the rules in Spain specifically. But that then raises the question of why the rules weren't followed.

> the rail operator instructed to continue at normal speed. When the train driver asked 'at normal speed?' the operator confirmed

As I explained earlier, "there's been a misunderstanding" is not good enough, I'm sure the report will dig deep to find the underlying causes and will issue plenty of recommendations to prevent this in the future.

I will refrain from speculating on what those causes are though, as there are far too many possibilities. But it's almost certainly a combination of multiple unfortunate factors that led to this horrible accident.

[–] jmorenoamor 1 day ago
Every protocol has corner cases, we have seen it world wide several times. It's frustrating to accept it because yesterday's accident was just a one word mistake from an operator, and my first reaction is also yours, it's unacceptable. But sadly and rationally, it can happen. As always has been, let's hope this leads to better protocols.
[–] 0xFAT_GUY 1 day ago
Then lets crash 10x more trains, it will still be safer than cars. The point is not to be safer than cars, the point is to not die while taking my daily commute in a form of transportation I have no control over whatsoever. Especially if its easy to mitigate like in the case of trains.
[–] NoLinkToMe 21 hours ago
> the point is to not die while taking my daily commute

Exactly, which is why you need to take trains, not cars.

Everything else you said completely misconstrues the point, nobody is arguing for less train or car safety, or that this crash was fine. That's ridiculous.

[–] renehsz 2 hours ago
Guys, let's not turn everything into a trains vs cars debate. Obviously, trains are much safer.

But the argument that the relative risk of trains is far lower is, unfortunately, often used as an excuse to not take safety in absolute terms seriously. It's almost like saying: "Because trains are already so much safer than cars, the few crashes that still happen are just bound to happen, they're a fact of life we have to accept, and not worth doing anything about." (I am exaggerating, of course.)

But many of these accidents are in fact easy to prevent, even without huge investment in new infrastructure. So we should prioritize that and make our voices heard that we care about railway safety! And no, this is not a psyop to make people drive their cars more, that would be ridiculous.

[–] ncr100 1 day ago
Per capita ?
[–] NoLinkToMe 21 hours ago
Per capita is pretty useless, you'd want to go per kilometer, which as I stated is still way safer for the train.
[–] graemep 1 day ago
its still probably the safest form of transport.

> I can't remember the last time I read good news related to my country.

I hear comments like this from people from many countries.

[–] nradov 1 day ago
The relative safety of various transportation modes varies a bit by country. In the USA at least, commercial airliners and buses are marginally safer than trains. (All of those are much safer than passenger cars.)

https://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/ipsavage/436.pdf

[–] lopis 1 day ago
Normal publications rarely publish good news. At most, news are often neutral, but mostly bad. One has to go out of their way to read actual good news.
[–] bamboozled 1 day ago
My feeling is there is a serious psychological manipulation campaign going on against the west and allies via social media.

Go look at Youtube on a story about UK helping Ukraine and look at all the comments saying, "Putin is not our enemy", "Russia is better than our own government, the UK is a failure".

It's not healthy.

[–] graemep 1 day ago
I do not think this is it, for several reasons:

1. I see the same from people in some non-western (or western allied) countries too. 2. I do not see many comments like that (although i do not look at youtube comments, i do see comments on these on social media) and have never seen any saying Russia is better than the UK! 3. The feeling of failure in the UK goes back to long before the Ukraine war - it has been developing over many decades.

My view is the west had a golden age after winning the cold war and cannot cope with the loss of its global dominance since. This has also had bad effects for some countries outside the west (not necessarily western allied) and there have been other political shifts around the world too.

I also think the way the news operates, and the rise of social media and mobile phones, lockdowns during the pandemic, have a lot to do with it.

[–] autoexec 1 day ago
While Russian bots and manipulation campaigns are real, sadly, I feel that there's enough legitimate issues that you'd still see many people upset even if the bots weren't there.
[–] pvaldes 1 day ago
> Go look at Youtube on a story about UK helping Ukraine and look at all the comments saying, "Putin is not our enemy"

Is even worse. See: Operation Doppelgänger [1]

The fact is that last week a wave of fridges operating under old software were attacked in France, apparently using LLM to abuse vulnerabilities; and this week one of the last high-speed routes still operating under the old security system crashed at every level. The "postmortem" of this failure will be very interesting to read.

[1] https://www.disinfo.eu/doppelganger-hub/

[–] left-struck 1 day ago
Ah but the good news thing is actually nothing to do with Spain and everything to do with news in this era. It’s a problem everywhere that news is like 95% bad, and not because the world is getting any worse either.
[–] autoexec 1 day ago
Both things can be true. The world is getting worse and news is overeager to tell you about it while ignoring the good things that are happening. Knowing about the good things wouldn't stop the bad things from still being true, but at least the news wouldn't be entirely depressing.
[–] linhns 1 day ago
Spain actually boasts about their train system quite a lot. That's why more attention on related news
[–] throwup238 1 day ago
The train in Spain derails mostly on the plain.
[–] HALtheWise 1 day ago
As far as I can tell, the idea that rail is the safest form of transit is just false. At least looking at recent Europe-wide data, and even if you make the _very_ favorable decision to include only occupant fatalities, modern commercial aviation has meaningfully lower fatalities per passenger-km than modern rail.
[–] gavinsyancey 1 day ago
Aviation is generally used for longer journeys, and most of its risk is in the take-off / landing (so per-trip instead of per-mile). I wonder what happens if you compare fatalities-per-passenger-trip (or per-passenger-mile) on typical-length trips where aviation and HSR are competitive?
[–] bombcar 1 day ago
Also trains seem safer because even in a collision like this many survived.

Most airplane crashes lose all souls.

[–] amanaplanacanal 1 day ago
Safest for passengers, it seems so. Safest for everybody else? Who knows?
[–] adventured 1 day ago
As someone from the US I have repeatedly heard that Spain's economy is doing reasonably well. And I just looked it up, unemployment is approximately the lowest it has been in two decades. Considering the post 2009 era of economic turmoil that Spain went through, that economic momentum seems like a real positive.

In June Goldman Sachs put out an article noting how well Spain's economy is doing, which included this employment comparison (showing Spain's outperformance versus its peers):

https://imgur.com/QqB74I6

Spain's unemployment rate has converged with Finland's, a remarkable improvement:

https://imgur.com/1cp6mL4

The jobs being created are tending more toward high value, high productivity jobs that pay better than average. That's no doubt helping diversify Spain's economy further away from tourism, which should provide greater long-term economic strength and stability. Overall it might be a really good decade coming up for the people of Spain.

[–] omnimus 1 day ago
I would also add how greatly improved living in Spain has been. The change in last 15 years is dramatic. Barcelona, Valencia, Malaga even Madrid are top of the list of best liveable cities. I am not sure how (probably local politics) but almost no other cities in europe managed to become so great.
[–] jmorenoamor 1 day ago
No, it has not. Two different events in different places with different causes. Two stochastic events that are not remotely related, but close in time.

Yesterday's accident was a protocol tragedy, someone made a terrible mistake, and sadly those things happen, everywhere. Having two accidents in less than a year is heart breaking, and everyone is feeling that anxiety.

I've taken than train line several times, and will take it again when it's available. Fear of an accident is human and natural when you ride a bus, a train or a plane, but one has to be rational, worldwide transportation is safe.

[–] pjerem 1 day ago
> Yesterday's accident was a protocol tragedy, someone made a terrible mistake, and sadly those things happen, everywhere.

IDK where you live but no, in Europe, it virtually never happens.

I will speak for France but the latest “big/mediatic” accidents were two (probably) Russian sabotages with not a lot of victims.

Then back to 2015 in Eckwersheim where a test train derailed on track trial (dramatic but no commercial passengers and the train was overspeeding voluntarily for the trial, even if it was an error).

Other than that we need to get back to 2013 to find the Brétigny-sur-Orge derailment.

Other accidents regularly happen but except from Bretigny derailment, I don’t remember passengers being killed in the last decades.

No one ever died as a commercial passenger of a TGV and hundreds are running at 320km/h every day since half a century. A few conductors died from a collision even that, in 45 years of service, is anecdotal (from a safety perspective, of course not for the victims).

So, no, Spain does seem to have a big issue.

[–] gls2ro 1 day ago
It does not matter that they were stochastic events because the reason we have regulation and procedures and protocols for these systems is to reduce randomness and mistakes as close to zero.

While individually each event can maybe just be random mistake having two could be the beginning of some new information about the system(s) we have to consider.

So we should all say and act like this is not acceptable and we need more focus on making these stochastic events not happen now that they are not just a mere probability over an event space filled with randomness. They just happened.