[–] leonidasrup 1 day ago
[–] ggreer 1 day ago
Diesel vehicles usually have much larger fuel tanks than gasoline vehicles, so while the chances of a crash causing a diesel fire are lower, the consequences tend to be worse. If the stats are to be believed, the two factors balance each other out.
[–] leonidasrup 1 day ago
Mechanical failure or malfunction as a factor 30%
Electrical failure or malfunction as a factor 12%
Collision, knock down, run over or overturn 3%
Intentional cause 4%
https://thedailyautomotive.com/what-causes-car-fires/
Probably the biggest difference between EV cars and ICE cars can be summarized as:
"Electric cars have a lower incidence of fires compared to gasoline vehicles. However, it’s estimated that about one-third of fires in electric vehicles occur while the car is parked and unplugged."
https://thedailyautomotive.com/do-electric-cars-catch-fire/
Electric Car Fire Statistics: What the Data Actually Shows
"The most dangerous moment for an EV is not on the highway. It is in a body shop or a scrapyard."
https://thedailyautomotive.com/how-many-electric-car-fires-p...
[–] jacquesm 1 day ago
> definitely
If you're not sure, why the definitely?
Lithium packs can light up (much) faster than you sketch here. The process you describe is correct in sequence but it takes about as long to read that sentence to get to a car that is engulfed in flame. More than one person died from the combination of toxic gases and heat before they managed to get out of the car.
Lithium Ion is a very bad battery type for anything that should be safe or moves, LFP is far better and LTO is better still.
[–] ggreer 1 day ago
The fact that some people have died in lithium battery fires doesn't tell you if they're a greater risk than petroleum vehicle fires. Around 500 Americans die in vehicle fires every year. Last year, EVs were around 3% of vehicle miles traveled in the US, so if they're as dangerous as petroleum vehicles, we should expect 15 battery fire deaths in 2025. The actual number seems to be 2 or 3.
[–] jacquesm 1 day ago
[–] ggreer 1 day ago
Diesel vehicles are 11% of vehicle miles traveled in the US, and around 60 people died in diesel vehicle fires last year (12% of vehicle fire fatalities). So they seem to be as dangerous as gasoline vehicles. This is probably because while diesel is more difficult to ignite than gasoline, diesel vehicles tend to have larger fuel tanks, so the harm caused by a diesel fire tends to be greater.
[–] jacquesm 1 day ago
Petroleum is essentially crude oil, diesel is a slightly lighter fraction and gasoline is a much lighter fraction.
Former gas station owner here, I think I know the difference. As for diesel vehicles having larger fuel tanks: they tend to be larger vehicles, and proportionally speaking they don't do much more harm because they are much easier to put out. The best way to deal with a battery fire is a controlled burn until it is spent.
As for the ratio of the fatalities: of course you need to correct for installed base.
[–] ggreer 1 day ago
I did correct for installed base. I'm using fatalities per vehicle mile traveled. As I said, diesel vehicles are 11% of vehicle miles traveled in the US and responsible for 12% of vehicle fire deaths in the US. EVs are 3% of vehicle miles traveled and less than 1% of vehicle fire deaths, so they're safer than diesel. The only way this could be false is if battery fire deaths are grossly underreported. That seems unlikely to me, as deaths caused by any new technology tend to be overreported. It should also be surprising that battery fire deaths are so rare, because we have little experience dealing with them. Over time, we should expect the danger of battery fires to decrease as technology and emergency training improves.
At this point, I don't know what would change your mind on this topic. I would change my mind if stats showed higher fire fatality rates per vehicle miles traveled for EVs, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I feel like I'm arguing with an anti-nuclear person. Statistics show that nuclear is extremely safe, but anti-nuclear activists ignore stats and point to nuclear accidents and the dangers of radiation. Meanwhile they ignore or discount the harms caused by alternatives. I don't see how your line of argument is any different.
[–] jacquesm 1 day ago
Vehicle fuels?
> I did correct for installed base. > I did correct for installed base. I'm using fatalities per vehicle mile traveled. As I said, diesel vehicles are 11% of vehicle miles traveled in the US and responsible for 12% of vehicle fire deaths in the US. EVs are 3% of vehicle miles traveled and less than 1% of vehicle fire deaths, so they're safer than diesel.
That conclusion doesn't hold up.
This isn't about EVs in general, it is about EV trucks vs Diesel trucks.
> At this point, I don't know what would change your mind on this topic. I would change my mind if stats showed higher fire fatality rates per vehicle miles traveled for EVs, but that doesn't seem to be the case. I feel like I'm arguing with an anti-nuclear person. Statistics show that nuclear is extremely safe, but anti-nuclear activists ignore stats and point to nuclear accidents and the dangers of radiation. Meanwhile they ignore or discount the harms caused by alternatives. I don't see how your line of argument is any different.
Totally different subject.
[–] flanz_10 1 day ago
They said "I'm not sure" to the road surface question, and "definitely more of a risk to people".
Roads and people are different things.
[–] jacquesm 1 day ago
[–] flanz_10 1 day ago
Again, roads and people are different.
[–] jacquesm 1 day ago
[–] flanz_10 1 day ago
At this point, it seems like you're attacking them out of a minor, localized grudge, more than anything else.
AKA: troll behavior. So, I am choosing to step away. Feel free to have the last word.
"They introduced many innovations as they built their designs, including bell crank suspensions, as pioneers in amphibious tanks, and the use of diesel engines that were less likely to catch fire compared with gasoline tank engines that were being used at the time."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_in_World_War_II
The answer from an actual firefighter:
" Diesel has a much higher flashpoint. This means the speed of deflagration is much slower. It cannot convert the diesel to vapour as quickly so can't disperse the fuel as quick to spread the surface area.. "
" Leaking petrol is much more dangerous in an accident. It is far easier to ignite. If any leaking petrol contacts the exhaust or brake discs it could ignite causing rapid flame spread trapping people in the car. Diesel won't do this. "
https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-for-diesel-cars-to-expl...