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points by internetter 1 day ago | 0 comments

> A Wikipedia editor can tag an article for deletion, and unless satisfactory edits are made within a certain timeframe, the page will disappear. Simeonovski didn’t do this—he referred the article for debate among his fellow editors.

Only in uncontroversial cases. In most cases, there is a debate where consensus is formed on if there is enough information about a person / topic to warrant an encyclopedia article. Wikipedia is struggling as is with the amount of content. An article cannot be written for every person under the son.

> Wikipedia pages, for better or worse, matter to people. To be included is a validation of a life.

There are billionares without wikipedia articles. There are people who have saved thousands of people from death without wikipedia articles. The only thing that matters in getting a wikipedia article is sufficient coverage by reputable 3rd party sources, such that there is enough material to write an accurate, informative, and neutral article. You should not derive your worth by this metric.

Furthermore, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:An_article_about_you...

[–] seb1204 1 day ago

Storage is cheap and I'd rather have an article marked as poor, short, stub but with some reference than no article.

[–] crazygringo 1 day ago

But Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a reference for all knowledge.

Thus, it draws the line at things and people that are notable.

Maybe you think it shouldn't be an encyclopedia, but should be some larger project that indexes every product UPC, every person born, and every website ever registered, but that's not what it is.

And the primary obstacle here isn't storage. It's quality. You need a sufficient number of eyeballs and editors per page to ensure that the crowdsourcing is actually passing a minimal quality bar. Millions of short, low-quality articles means millions of opportunity for spam, abuse, and other problems.

[–] TFNA 1 day ago

I was active in Wikipedia from 2002, and there was a lot of idealism back then among editors that it would be a "reference for all knowledge". Those wishing for a more constrained site eventually won the day, and they had good arguments like yours. But even today, you can find certain pop-culture lore, for example, covered in insane depth on Wikipedia; not everything was sent away to Fandom wikis as Wikipedia's policies evolved. So, it doesn't surprise me that people continue to ask, like here, why WP can't be more ambitious.

[–] californical 1 day ago

> you can find certain pop-culture lore, for example, covered in insane depth on Wikipedia; not everything was sent away to Fandom wikis

But if the pop culture lore has insane depth then it’s probably valuable enough to keep, yeah? If it has a few limited snippets and very few people writing about it as sources, then it’s a lot more questionable

[–] Xirdus 1 day ago

Insanely deep lore is a dime a dozen these days. Every other fantasy book series has one. Every other video game has one. Not to mention fanfics, especially shared universe fanfics. Being deep lore should be a reason to delete, not to add a page.

There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for Mr. Tik-tok from Oz to have his own Wikipedia page. He's less notable than, say, Knight Artorias, and I don't think anyone in their right mind would argue Knight Artorias deserves one.

Then again, neither does the Great Grey Wolf Sif, yet here we are.

[–] crooked-v 10 hours ago

Tik-Tok was a main character in a live-action film in the 1980s and the title character of a stage musical 1910s, along with appearing in about a bajillion sequel books and cartoon adaptations by many different people.

A minor fun fact: Playing Tik-Tok on stage was one the early roles of James C. Morton, who appeared in a truly ridiculous number of comedy films from the 20s thorugh the 40s alongside the Three Stooges, Laurel and Hardy, Charlie Chaplin, and others.

[–] kazinator 9 hours ago

The argument can be made, though, that information about subjects (such as people) that are not notable is just data, not "knowledge".

[–] suddenlybananas 6 hours ago

What on earth is that argument?

[–] kazinator 3 hours ago

For instance, I'm in a room that has a "popcorn" textured ceiling. Suppose I take detailed pictures of it, and start making maps, giving names to the numerous bumps. Would that really be knowledge? There is no doubt that it would be data.

[–] psychoslave 1 hour ago

Of course it would be knowledge, including knowledge about how some human would process to map that kind of phenomenon, as well as his they name things. As soon as someone put some attention to some information, it becomes some kind of knowledge.

[–] hluska 6 hours ago

I’m glad you’re struggling too. I was starting to wonder if I was having a stroke.

[–] psychoslave 1 hour ago

More ambitious is not necessarily aiming at covering with less discrimination.

I would find an encyclopedia with exactly zero article about any individual biography far more ambitious than one that cover only some, provided it would explain everything in term of structuralist perspective and consider names of actual people involved as relevant as the names of cells in a macrosized living form.

Or indeed the other way around, covering every single individual with an equal level of details, should it be done with first hand done investigation.

The middle ground that let enter only articles about people whose personal information passed the selection bias of other institutions is the lowest ambition of them all.

[–] NoMoreNicksLeft 1 day ago

The only reason that it wasn't more ambitious back then was because they wanted to be thought of as a grown-up encyclopedia and that meant aping Britannica. Britannica's dead, no one will remember it in 50 years, but now what was a capricious strategy is unquestionable dogma.

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, the only one left, and it gets to define what an encyclopedia will be to everyone from this day forward. Excuses for my it must limit itself are inane.

[–] FDEUp 3 hours ago

> ...Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a reference for all knowledge.

Correct. In contrast stands the Internet Archive, whose mission has been described as "universal access to all human knowledge" [0].

[0] https://blog.archive.org/2016/02/24/fair-use-access-to-all-h...

[–] cryptonector 1 day ago

https://kwarc.info/teaching/TDM/Borges.pdf

[–] ButlerianJihad 8 hours ago

> some larger project that indexes every

Wikipedia can link to that stuff. Authority Control databases are mostly concerned with notable people and unique creative works.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Authority_control

When disambiguation of "John Smith" fails, Authority Control is there to help!

[–] hluska 10 hours ago

> Maybe you think it shouldn't be an encyclopedia, but should be some larger project that indexes every product UPC, every person born, and every website ever registered, but that's not what it is.

Can you point out where the parent (or anyone else on this thread) has suggested this? Or are you just using a cheap persuasion technique?

[–] kazinator 9 hours ago

Anyone who disagrees with the notability guidelines must either propose revised notability guidelines which are more inclusive, but not absolutely so, or else accept that their position of opposing notability is tantamount to arguing for the inclusion of all data about anything whatsoever.

If you don't think that information about every UPC code or person who ever existed is fair game for inclusion in the Wikipedia it means you have some notion of notability. If so you should articulate it exactly and say, "this is what notability should be".

[–] psychoslave 1 hour ago

Of course we should record it all. How we articulate them into relevant encyclopedic article or some pedagogical book or something else (Wikimedia ecosystem don't need to limit to Wikipedia) is a distinct matter. The underlying goal was indeed "imagine a world where everyone as access to the sum of all knowledge" and not something shrinked to whatever notability definition is in fashion in this or that context.

[–] hluska 6 hours ago

I’m really struggling to understand why this is relevant. I quoted a section the original commenter wrote and asked a question. I have zero involvement with Wikipedia shy a few proposed edits when I published and had sources to add. But that was nearly twenty years ago and I have less than no interest in getting involved again for reasons that are even more irrelevant than this comment.

I have no interest in notability guidelines or in getting involved and proposing anything. But I would like some actual discussion about things that people say as opposed to wild claims about how every UPC should have a Wikipedia page. That is fucking insane… but if you impose insane arguments upon those you disagree with, you’re not engaging, you’re obfuscating.

I have nothing against you whatsoever, but are you sure you hit reply to the right comment?

[–] tonymet 1 day ago

yes a very esteemed encyclopedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog

[–] jmm5 2 hours ago

The issue is that all of those articles have to be maintained. Every so often some insignificant professor has their article edited by a student to say that they were sanctioned by the university for sexual misconduct when they were not. That's just one example, as it's easy to meet notability guidelines as an academic. It's a problematic to have tons of biographies for living people with marginal notability. On the other hand, any random hurricane or rural highway merrits an article because these pages don't lead to the same problems.

[–] crote 1 day ago

Wikipedia isn't a database. There shouldn't be a Wikipedia page about every single grain of sand, and neither should there be one about every single person. If you aren't notable enough to have a bunch of journalists write articles about you, then what you are doing isn't impactful enough to warrant an encyclopedia entry.

The disambiguation page of "John Smith" already contains 287 people. You're looking for the John Smith who was a US Navy sailor and received the Medal of Honor in the second half of the 19th century? There's three of them with a page already, and they have to be distinguished by year of birth. No need to make that page hundreds of thousands of non-noteworthy people long, having to be distinguished by SSN.

[–] bawolff 9 hours ago

Storage is cheap, but low quality articles, especially those on obscure enough topics that they are impossible to verify, have a real reputational cost.

[–] internetter 1 day ago

Wikipedia has other concerns, such as maintaining a neutral pov (avoiding the perception of advertising/endorsement, and likewise avoiding being a platform for libel and the lawsuits that come with that).

[–] nullc 5 hours ago

> likewise avoiding being a platform for libel and the lawsuits that come with that

I'd state that differently. The law is the limit on how bad you can act and get away with it. Wikipedia shouldn't be smearing people because it's an evil thing to do, not because its a potential tort.

This is particularly important because not libeling someone is not sufficient to prevent them from suing you anyways in any case. :) ... and focus on legal limits results in outcomes like telling people reporting serious crimes that you don't care because you're not obligated to under S230.

In any case compared to practically every other large internet site Wikipedia does a much better job behaving ethically. I've wasted weeks trying to get reddit to take down posts of hacked nudes on a subreddit specifically about posting hacked nudes and sending them to the victim's coworkers. Google does nothing about scam videos/adds reported to them, etc. With english wikipedia, you can hop into a chat channel or mailing list and reliably something which is obviously wildly inappropriate will be immediately handled. 95% of this is because whatever their flaws the site is operated by human beings that care about doing the right thing, rather than some accountability free corporate human-centipede. The remaining 5% is because Wikipedia Is An Encyclopedia, and so some of the free expression tradeoffs that might show up elsewhere just don't apply.

[–] SchemaLoad 1 day ago

The deleted articles aren't actually removed from the storage, they just get delisted. Articles get removed because there isn't enough reputable sources to create an article.

Wikipedia would rather you create a blog post or any other method of getting information on the internet than to host unverifiable information under their trusted brand name.

[–] qingcharles 9 hours ago

This. I had one deleted because it needed more editing and I didn't get back to it in time, but you can just edit it and request it be put back, IIRC. It's like one button click.

[–] Vaushite 1 day ago

Storage isn't the expensive part of running a large store of information.

[–] arjie 1 day ago

I've agreed with occasional deletions. Without that mechanism you just get self-promotional content. That stuff still makes it, but I think it makes Wikipedia poorer to be a Forbes 500,000 Under 500,000 explicitly. It's probably worth it to run a separate deletopedia that preserves the content but I don't think Wikipedia should be exhaustive. It's pretty good at only containing sufficiently notable things. One could argue that more things should move to fandom-style wikis and I think perhaps the Pokemon are better on bulbapedia etc.

We don't have a neat interwiki search yet that makes federation work well, but in time perhaps something like that will develop.

[–] nextaccountic 9 hours ago

If there are no sources, how do you ensure the contents are factual?

[–] alexey-salmin 1 day ago

That still worsens the signal/noise ratio and that's the only thing that matters in the modern age

[–] guelo 9 hours ago

What is not cheap these days is authoritative trustable curated information.

[–] thebeardisred 1 day ago

Thanks for linking that essay from wikipedia. People seem to forget the burden of fame/infamy.

[–] internetter 1 day ago

"“Even though dodgeball is not considered a mainstream sport, competing at the highest level in any sport is a significant accomplishment,” Burton told me. “Given the ongoing attempts to erase transgender people, along with infringements on our rights and our ability to live normal lives, this action is not surprising.”"

This is the discussion for the deletion of this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletio...

Do you see any attempts at erasure here? It looks to me like the process of consensus working well. Original nominator makes a well reasoned but poorly researched claim, leading to article improvement, a clear establishment that Savannah is indeed notable enough for inclusion, and the original nominator learning something new about the deletions process.

> There is, when you look for it, a careless and cocky tone that can creep into the verdicts of Wikipedia editors who have been doing the job for a long time. “This guy is a nobody. Delete him.” “I’ve got more followers on Instagram than he does.” “All we have here are stand-up comedy, opinion columns, being a guest or collaborator on some non-notable podcasts … This is more or less every twentieth person who lives in NYC.”

This tone could be improved, however looking at the surrounding context, I imagine the editors participating in these discussions are frustrated by the hundreds of articles on obviously non-notable people made by themselves or their publicist with no regard for the notability policies. I do not have access to the deleted pages as I am not an admin, however I speak from experience participating in many many AfDs and everything I've seen described in this wired article is consistent with my experience. Here are the pertinent discussions that the author fails to link, perhaps because it undermines their point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletio...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Bio...

> One month after Simeonovski nominated Dimoska’s biography for deletion, he lost. The page was kept. “Given the bludgeoning, canvassing, and sockpuppetry evident here, this is a no consensus closure without prejudice against speedy renomination,” wrote an editor in a determination. “The arguments to delete here are stronger on the merits, but sufficient reasoned opposition exists that I do not see a consensus for deletion.” Obstinacy won the day, though Dimoska’s page now carries a disclaimer that it contains “promotional content.”

Again, seems as if the process is working as intended.

[–] kazinator 9 hours ago

> You should not derive your worth by this metric.

Ted Bundy and Adolf Hitler are notable for the purposes of the Wikipedia. So, yeah ...

Also, another way to be notable enough for the Wikipedia is to end up in the "Notable Winners" section of this page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darwin_Awards

[–] mistrial9 1 day ago

multiple ordinary blowhards have their own puff pages because they did it early enough

[–] internetter 1 day ago

you should nominate these pages for deletion when you come across them

[–] tonymet 1 day ago

consensus just means some clique approves, and the dissenter lost patience to continue debating the issue. it's ignoble.

[–] internetter 1 day ago

Deletion discussions frequently span weeks and sometimes months with dozens or hundreds of people. You are also right that consensus can fail. The article fails to produce an obvious case of it failing to support their argument, nor a suggestion as to what a better process could be.

[–] rwmj 16 hours ago

"frequently span weeks" except when it doesn't. I tried adding an English article about a Chinese singer (who has her own Chinese WP page already), and it was speedy deleted seconds later.

[–] internetter 8 hours ago

what is the singer in question?

[–] tonymet 1 day ago

there's loads of discussion and proposals about better process. For one, recognizing "consensus" for what it is. anonymous mob / clique decision making.