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points by SilverSlash 3 days ago | 0 comments
In 2025, Hong Wang won the Fields Medal for proving the Kakeya conjecture in three dimensions. Here, OpenAI is claiming to have solved a stronger problem that proves the Kakeya conjecture in all dimensions!

That's so insane to me. This top mathematician (and colleagues) at her pinnacle spent years proving it in three dims and now OAI proves it in every dimension...

[–] cjohnson318 3 days ago
The question for me is, would OpenAI have been able to solve this without Hong Wang's work?
[–] anshumankmr 3 days ago
The question for some is, is whether the original authors would have produced their work without building off from the work of other mathematicians.

(which is somewhat valid). Though I think a far more interesting thing would be whether AI given the corpus of 19th century mathematics and physics reproduce what Ramanujam or what Einstein did.

[–] jazzyjackson 3 days ago
:/

IMO that there is any work at all to build from is the result of a long tradition of taking the next step. Professor to student and so on. The danger of AI here is we get to take a leap, say, 10 steps - but then there is no more tradition to have the fortitude and mentoring necessary to continue the progress.

It all gets derailed while betting on RSI and never having to do math research again (but if an advanced theorem is proven, and no one alive is competent enough to comprehend it, does it even matter that we get to call it solved?)

[–] olmo23 2 days ago
> if an advanced theorem is proven, and no one alive is competent enough to comprehend it, does it even matter

For any applied mathematics: of course it matters if I can use a better algorithm for $PROBLEM. Yes, even if I do not understand it (I'd like a LEAN certificate tho)! As for pure mathematics, it can be argued that it never mattered in the first place.

[–] soon_to_be_sb 3 days ago
This is why the AI companies are making money off selling tokens and raking in investments for as long as it will work and is not looking to create the value themselves and making money off it...

They know that value creation is a dead end sooner or later..

[–] alfiedotwtf 2 days ago
If we suddenly skipped 10 generations of mathematical lineage because of AI, wouldn’t it also be smart enough that you could just prompt it to connect ideas from graduate level maths all the way to the proof!
[–] RugnirViking 2 days ago
no. That's not a given at all? I think most reasonably people now agree that AI intelligence is spiky, that is to say, there are some areas it is amazingly good, and some areas where it spectacularly fails.

One of these areas it's not good at is sadly it's social ability. It's terrible at explaining things - just try asking ask it to explain code !

[–] olmo23 2 days ago
wdym? ai is great at explaining things; it's one of the primary use-cases outside of programming.
[–] RugnirViking 2 days ago
I find there is quite a difference between something like "what do I do next" for a specific problem, and actually trying to learn something hard from an AI. The first it is quite good at, the second it is not. Surface level is easy, going into the weeds is difficult
[–] zhobbs 2 days ago
It seems like future models could build off the 10 steps to take 10 more. It's not 10 steps of AI slop, it's a discovery to build off of just like how human scientific progress has worked.
[–] bemtevi 3 days ago
I think the question is rather, what will happen to human beings when any possible personal intellectual accomplishment will no longer be seen as interesting or relevant by other human beings when AI can do most of it?

It's all well and good to say that we should just go on these journeys for our own enrichment, but even so they will just be doing it alone...or else not do it at all because they need a shared human effort surrounding them to do it, and therefore end up depressed and immersed in drugs or media all day.

Of course we're awed at what AI can do now, because all of us observing it have had the luxury of having such opportunities before AI. I got my PhD before AI and I found satisfaction in participating in a shared math community, which I wouldn't have done if I were starting my PhD now, because I would find the current academic environment unacceptable and useless.

[–] xp84 3 days ago
Many people still do woodworking for the love of the craft, even though factories exist with machines that can do everything hand tools can but 10x better and faster. If AI gets way out in front of anything humans understand, I expect that mathematicians will probably pick up where their understanding actually is, and carry on.
[–] krige 3 days ago
That analogy is rather poor. Woodworking produces discrete, unique, and physical objects, that can be made, and found use for, as many times as the craftsman wishes. Once you discover a law of physics, you can't discover it again, and it's not yours to do with as you please.
[–] NetMageSCW 2 days ago
Why not? If I discovered a law of physics that explains superconductivity and could use it to make a room temperature superconductor and kept it a trade secret?
[–] krige 1 day ago
That's a whole another discussion though. You're bringing in manufacturing to the hypothetical, where it wasn't there before.
[–] xp84 3 days ago
That would be a very exciting experiment. I doubt you could find enough vintage training data to train a LLM enough to do it without it being contaminated by anachronistic data in the weights, but I would be absolutely amazed if it could reproduce that.
[–] anshumankmr 2 days ago
There are some folks trying the same thing as I mentioned. Can check the past posts on HN that talk about the same thjing
[–] gewetensleegte 2 days ago
Other mathematicians have done the work of writing out and publishing these proofs, OpenAI has published Lean certificates.

The first type of work pushes the field of mathematics further, the second kind strip-mines the sense of discovery and accomplishment and replaces it with math homework for high level mathematicians, because in order for it to be useful, it still needs to be turned into a human readable proof.

It's imho not valid to say OpenAI is "building off" other mathematicians work, in the same way as humans, do.

[–] hollowturtle 2 days ago
> Though I think a far more interesting thing would be whether AI given the corpus of 19th century mathematics and physics reproduce what Ramanujam or what Einstein did.

I don't think so, it was a big leap forward in terms of creativity, imagination, rigor and experimentation. Einstein was able to "run" visual thought experiments inside his mind

[–] joe_the_user 3 days ago
whether the original authors would have produced their work without building off from the work of other mathematicians.

That's rhetorical, right? Of course mathematicians built on what older mathematicians built and OpenAI's machine built on that. The real question whether OpenAI's machine has contributed something others will in turn build on.

[–] pfdietz 2 days ago
> The real question whether OpenAI's machine has contributed something others will in turn build on.

This has already happened.

[–] anshumankmr 3 days ago
Not saying I agree with the view, but something along those lines popped up when the Naive Stokes conjecture was seemingly solved (and way before when Open AI began solving Olympiad level problems and so on with their older class of models). Personally, I do see both sides of the argument. Though the broader impact remains to be seen.
[–] ubersketch 3 days ago
The proof uses completely different methods as what harmonic analysts used for the Kakeya conjecture prior so probably yeah.
[–] Valakas_ 3 days ago
Would Hong Wang would have been able to do his work without previous physicists work? That's the real question!
[–] cjohnson318 1 day ago
That's not the real question. Humans make incremental progress and sometimes have a brilliant inspiration that seems to change all of mathematical thinking after it. The question is: is AI making predictable incremental progress? Or is it discovering fundamentally different ways of thinking about math?
[–] casey2 1 day ago
The idea that mathematicians progress math by discovering fundamentally different ways of thinking about it is closer to a hallucination than a meaningful statement about mathematics.
[–] soVeryTired 3 days ago
*her work
[–] gewetensleegte 2 days ago
Why is that even a question? That's how human mathematics has worked for ages, it's OpenAI breaking that chain, which needs to be severely questioned.

Because the real question is not whether anyone or anything built on other work, but whether any human can build on that work.

And so far, yet again, OpenAI has stopped just shy of that, instead creating math homework for mathematical geniuses while taking away their sense of discovery and accomplishment.

[–] Nomennonhabeo 3 days ago
Yes. The all-dimension result follows a completely different approach from that of Wang and Zahl.
[–] Gabriel54 2 days ago
This question strikes me as strange, because it has always been in the nature of the mathematical community to share results as openly and widely as possible. Hong Wang’s work was in the public domain and was meant to be built upon. This is what human mathematicians have been doing for centuries.
[–] casey2 1 day ago
The answer from me is, yes.
[–] robotpepi 3 days ago
To be honest this doesn't feel as such impressive as the others. It was recently proven in 3 dimensions, so it could be "just" an extension of that. I haven't read the paper anyways so this is pure spectulation.
[–] arutar 2 days ago
OpenAI's proof goes down a completely different route than the route taken for Kakeya in three dimensions and also the existing proof of local smoothing in two dimensions.

Hong Wang and Josh Zahl proved something a bit stronger, namely that the Kakeya conjecture holds for families of tubes satisfying the "Convex Wolff Axioms". From the outside this looks like a weird technical detail but if you unpack this you get an exceptional example of 'the journey is worth more than the destination'.

The idea for resolving Kakeya in R3 originates in the work of Jean Bourgain and a connection to the discretized sum-product phenomenon (the idea, in R, that "sum" and "product" are geometrically incompatible). This approach is summarized in Terry Tao's blog post from 12 years ago now [1].

Basically, the efforts to make this approach work resulted in the development of an entirely new and extraordinarily active subfield that one might call "continuous incidence geometry". This led to ideas like restricted projection theory (with spectacular applications in homogeneous dynamics and number theory), decoupling (another one of Thomas Wolff's ideas, and was realized by Bourgain and Demeter), the resolution of the Furstenberg set theorem, etc. There are very far-ranging applications, some of which even appeared on HN, and which a priori look totally unrelated, like the Heilbronn Triangle problem [2]

I know this is out of the context of most here on HN but let me say it in short: the development of the sum-product approach to Kakeya has resulted in a huge improvement of our understanding of the fundamental additive and multiplicative structure of Euclidean space.

OpenAI's proof of local smoothing in Rd shortcuts this entire matter. Don't get me wrong, the proof is phenomenal, and it's amazing that Local Smoothing admits a short, essentially self-contained proof (only uses some facts about elliptic PDEs which I can't comment about unfortunately since it isn't my area).

Hong Wang didn't win the fields medal for proving Kakeya in three dimensions (only). She won because of her incredible contributions to the development of continuous incidence geometry. The proof of local smoothing certainly contains a lot of very interesting insights into the wave equation but, if this proof had appeared in 2014 just like this, I do not think we would have had the same amount of development.

To me, this is the heart of the matter. For mathematicians, only having these incredible new proofs with no "social consequences" would be extraordinary. However, if we are not careful, the idea that math is "solved" will degrade the mathematics tradition in its own right. Where will be in 10 years, in 50 years? Humans, by virtue of being much worse at computations than computers, must build the "correct" abstractions in order to discover new mathematics. If this process is somehow lost, independently of the computer's ability to prove an infinite tower of new results, the mathematics tradition will suffer for it.

[1]: https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/stickiness-grainin...

[2]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37465852

[–] bamb008 2 days ago
Doesn't this make it seem like Wang had the wrong intuition, if her meyhod does not generalize? She proved Kakeya only in dimension 3, and also not prove the Hausdorff 3D Kakeya. In retrospect it seems humans were asking the wrong question, if a couple dozen pages long manuscript can subsume so many other efforts.

AI has only been able to advance the math frontier for a couple of months, fully grasping the applications, connections, and possible generalizations takes longer.

[–] arutar 2 days ago
They did have the right intuition; it's pretty uncontroversial to believe that local smoothing in Rd would have been resolved within the next decade without AI input. For example, Hong, Josh and coauthors were pretty far along the way to finishing the R4 case when they got scooped in the previous batch. The timeframes are too short, of course.

My original comment was perhaps badly written: my point was that the OpenAI proof does not subsume the previous efforts because they are proving something stronger than Kakeya using very geometric methods based on the discretized sum-product theory in the real line. This approach has basically revolutionized modern analysis. Kakeya is just one very publicly visible problem. All of the other byproducts are in total of much greater interest than the resolution of Kakeya itself.

It's like Fermat's last theorem: who cares about solutions to x^n + y^n = z^n? It's the underlying theory-building in algebraic geometry that is the actual interesting product in its own right. If someone finds an extraordinarily clever 1 page proof of Fermat's last theorem it does not mean that the progress on algebraic geometry was useless.

I want to point out as well that it's quite common for humans to find very short clever proofs of difficult old results. Those proofs have value of course but rarely do they generalize. One of the goals of mathematics is to understand the fundamental mechanism underlying why things are true; proofs (of any origin) that are too slick is antithetical to this.

[–] Gabriel54 2 days ago
Sometimes the particular case is the hard case (as opposed to the general or high-dimensional case), so it is not so clear without looking at the respective proofs. Nevertheless of course it is a remarkable achievement!
[–] mazeuil 2 days ago
Hong Wang was awarded the Fields Medal in 2026.
[–] Davidzheng 3 days ago
I mean, the models (starting with Bel clearly and Astra probably--though Astra probably is worse than top humans in some areas) are superhuman at math.