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points by fallingbananna 2 days ago | 0 comments
Even in the developed world, you don't need to register solar instalation as long as you don't plan to plug it into the general network, right?

If you have your own circuit with solar and battery and devices disconnected from the rest of the grid, then there is nothing to register, right?

[–] lompad 2 days ago
For germany:

For balcony panels you only have to do a very small registration, but no large bureaucratic process or getting a permit.

For larger ones you still must get a permit for a very simple reason: even if you don't get your power into the general network, you still affect it by using less, which might cause issues with grid stability.

We have so much power on sunny days now that we can barely deal with it. Which in turn occasionally even causes power prices to go negative - you can get paid for drawing power.

[–] MakersF 2 days ago
Dealing with power from solar panels is easy: you disconnect them (curtailment). So it's not a problem.

Have you ever wondered how is it possible that the price goes negative? Why would someone pay you to use the energy they produce? Logically, the price shouldn't go below 0 (*) . The reason is that the government gives incentives for each kWh produ ed. So if they pay you 0.10€/kWh, you'll be happy to pay people up to 0.09€/kWh as long as you can keep producing, since your marginal cost is 0. Basically government incentives are producing this situation, paying people to produce electricity nobody wants. It's also the reason why production is far from consumption: the incentives never were designed to push to generate useful electrons, just electrons, even if they cannot be moved to where they are useful. We need to rework how incentives are provided, because this is ending up wasting a ton of public money!

(*) except for power stations were they cannot physically turn it off, but generally they wouldn't be able to produce enough energy to define the marginal price

[–] flakeoil 2 days ago
In that case the government should pay incentives when purchasing an electric car. That way the electricity being produced on sunny days can be stored and used when it is cloudy. Electric cars will also be spread out geographically, quite in line with solar panel installations so that solves for regional and network issues too. And as an added benefit we use less oil (less combustion cars) and less gas (we charge when it is sunny and not when we produce electricity with gas generators).

By using less oil and less gas we reduce CO2 emmissions, save money and are less dependent on other regions far away.

[–] netsharc 2 days ago
I wonder if the excess energy could be used to do things like run carbon capture (although I've read that this is very much a pipe dream, that it'll take several magnitudes more carbon capture facilities to counter what we're currently producing).

In a very tiny Canary Island, their battery is many many tonnes of water pumped uphill when they have windpower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXhAj5BHdfM

[–] msby 2 days ago
Pumped-storage hydroelectricity is done in the alps (at least in Austria as well)
[–] gniv 2 days ago
Same in France. You also sign that whatever excess you're producing goes to the grid for free.
[–] holgerschurig 2 days ago
> you still affect it by using less, which might cause issues with grid stability

That is weird and IMHO totally wrong. And I'm living in Germany. Anyone here can e.g. create an isolated network, without any permission. The local electricity provider etc doesn't care. All they care however that they remove the counter and the main circuit breaker at their end, to really isolate your house from the rest.

[–] lompad 1 day ago
Maybe I phrased it badly, the scenario I have in mind is this:

you have a house, taking power from the grid. Then you want to become more self-sufficient and add solar, but don't want to sell to the grid, just for yourself. If the solar installation and its circuit is not _fully_ separate from the one connected to the grid you have to get a permit even if it's a "Nulleinspeiseanlage".

Yes, technically you could make everything completely separate, then it would be fine. But I haven't seen that in the wild a single time so far.

[–] zarzavat 2 days ago
This doesn’t make any sense. You also use less electricity if you switch off your devices. I think Germans just have a fetish for permits.
[–] leonidasrup 2 days ago
Adherence to regulations is one of the reasons why the German grid is so reliable.

The Germans manage their electric grid very well, the last major electric blackout in Germany was in 2006. (More than 15 million clients of the Union for the Co-ordination of Transmission of Electricity (UCTE) did not have access to electricity for about two hours on this date.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_European_blackout

On the other hand electric grids in Philippines are quite unreliable and economic losses caused by blackouts are quite high:

" That is a brutal reminder that every blackout doesn’t just kill the lights; it sets the nation’s money, productivity, and economic progress on fire. " https://mb.com.ph/2026/10/26/blackouts-heavy-price-tag-is-ga...

[–] lompad 2 days ago
Regarding reliability: Absolutely. I honestly didn't experience a major blackout in my entire life in germany. I always forget just how big of a problem that still is for many countries and areas.
[–] richjdsmith 2 days ago
I grew up in Canada and realized I had no memory of a grid blackout (or even brownout for that matter). Google tells me the last time Canada saw a blackout event was in 2003, affecting only one province (not the one I live in), and it lasted for only 7 hours for most people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003

I had never really considered how stable our grid is until now. I've experienced blackouts in other countries while traveling/living abroad, but Canada has a remarkably well managed grid.

[–] tharkun__ 2 days ago
Canada is large. Your local experience may not match everyone's lived experience. And yes, I'm not in but very close to one of the major Canadian cities, not in the actual boonies.

Also you may not care for Ontario and Quebec but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Canada_ice_storm Much more recently.

I can count more years where I've used the generator multiple times a year than years where I did not have to use the generator. Given we don't have automatic whole house failover and I have to actually bring it out, fill it, plug a bunch of things into extension cables we run all over the house etc. we only do it for "major" ones i.e. when it's been out for some time and the outage map shows that "it's not just us". And I'm in a part of our town that usually gets the least amount of power outages and is usually the first to get reconnected as well when it does. And our neighbors that do have automatic failovers are what I count as "actually a power outage". That happens even more often. Like the times when I'm like "OK if this goes one more minute I'm gonna 'fold' and go take out the generator". And then it comes back on after half an hour.

This usually happens around the start and end of winter nowadays meaning during storms and especially sleet/ice storms that coat the lines and trees. I.e. I need to remember to fill up the jerry cans soon actually, thanks for the reminder.

Now, vs. say what is being reported of the Philippines there this is still way more reliable but its nowhere near the reliability of what is cited about Germany.

[–] gnabgib 2 days ago
That's an extraordinary experience. That's not everyone's lived experience. Interior BC, or Northern Ontario?

Zero blackouts for me (obviously a different part, but for a while in the one referenced by GP), except a transformer explosion (for me - a very real total lack of power for 7 days, but not the city, province, or Canada). A Canada blackout is impossible right now (we have several separate networks with interties, and each individual network has failsafes preventing an outage spreading). Although, a series of cascading bad decisions could work.. I guess.. if you like that sort of thing.

[–] tharkun__ 2 days ago
Transformer explosion is a really good reference you make there. Not extraordinary at all. Maybe where you are. Not here. Like I said, don't extrapolate from your own Canadian experience to the rest of Canada. There are many thousands of kilometers from coast to coast and the weather is quite different across. I regularly talk to people at work where while I shiver at -20C they sit in the rain in "winter" ;)

The explosions is what we get every single winter. Not necessarily affecting ourselves. But we get "the sky light up" and "loud boom" multiple times every winter. Each time we go like "OK I guess it's starting". Many times it doesn't actually start for us given where we are specifically but I check the outage map and then I see how far away some of those actually are vs. how alight the sky was and how loud it was through closed windows. As in, it seems like it was a street over and it was actually many many kilometers away!

And like I said, big metro area with millions of people. Most of those definitely don't experience this as much as we do here as much of the actual "city" area of that has either buried power lines or when they don't there are no trees nearby (very sad actually). "Out here" in the "boonie but not actual boonies" part of the metro area the power lines do all run above ground and among trees in many parts of the area.

So yeah, while a big 2003 style outage may not be very likely any longer, for my local experience that really doesn't matter a lot in that sense and even in Canada in total, power outages of a half million households plus have happened more recently than your 2003 reference. Not limited to my earlier 2023 example (nicely recent, only 3 years ;) )

2013 ice storm Ontario: over 600,000 customer outages at the storm’s height. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_2013_North_American_s...

May 2018 windstorm Ontario and Quebec: over 925,000 customers combined https://cdd.publicsafety.gc.ca/dtpg-eng.aspx?cultureCode=en-...

December 2018 windstorm British Columbia: power knocked out to 600,000 households https://news.gov.bc.ca/releases/2019PSSG0119-002228

Halloween storm, 2019 Quebec: about 980,000 Hydro-Québec customers without power at the peak. https://globalnews.ca/news/6112250/quebec-montreal-high-wind...

November 2020 windstorm Ontario: Hydro One reported over 542,000 customers affected. https://cdd.publicsafety.gc.ca/dtpg-eng.aspx?cultureCode=en-...

May 2022 derecho Ontario: about 586,000 Hydro One outages. Quebec: about 550,000 Hydro-Québec customers affected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2022_Canadian_derecho

September 2022, Fiona Nova Scotia: over 415,000 customers - Prince Edward Island: over 82,000 - New Brunswick: 44,329. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurricane_Fiona

April 2023 ice storm Quebec: 1,125,000 customers without power at the same time. Ontario: Hydro One reported over 114,000 affected customers. Hydro Ottawa reported 56,000.

https://ottawa.citynews.ca/2023/04/09/more-than-130000-still...

[–] lompad 2 days ago
On grid-scale this very much has an influence. Obviously not on individual scale. Is the influence big enough to warrant needing permits? Not sure, but I certainly see the problem.

In many areas solar panels get turned of by grid operators remotely for many hours on sunny days. In an area in the south I worked in around 50-70% of the produced power of larger installations (>30kwp) is essentially thrown away because the grid simply doesn't have enough capacity.

[–] zarzavat 2 days ago
Every day people go to work and turn off their electrical devices. Switching your home to off-grid solar + batteries is just like going to work and not coming back. The grid can handle it.

If many houses install off-grid solar, it's still not going to have a negative effect on the grid because the change is spread out over time.

It does mean that less generating capacity is needed over the long term, but decision makers can just get that data directly from the grid. I don't see what extra information the permit is adding.

[–] holgerschurig 2 days ago
Nah, the OP just posted some false facts.

And Germany is #4 regarding grid stability (measured in SAIDI) in Europe. There are only some tiny and small countries better than the german grid, and no large industrial country. And, btw, Europe has a WAY higher grid stability than the Americas.

Why is that important? Years ago, I had weekly telcos with a customer in Tucson, Arizona. And more often than not we didn't had one: they had no power over there. So the shabby quality of the public grid influenced in a bad way their economy. Businesses simply couldn't talk and plan during that period. Probably also not produce.

Having a top-notch grid is IMHO a basis for a successful economy.

(And fun thing: the german grid is so good ALSO because of our neighbors. We're all interconnected. In Germany, we don't really have the landscape for massive water pump storage power plants. But when we have excess electricity, the ones in Austria and Switzerland are using "our" power. And we need the power, we get "their" power back. Or France ... in the summer, they now routinely have to power down their nuclear plants due to cooling issues. But in France ... no one notices. We all help each other. In year 53% of the french atomic power was "out" due to climate change and regular maintenance. And it all worked nethertheless. As it should be!)

[–] nuancebydefault 2 days ago
"negative price" is a bit misleading. It means you get a discount on monthly bill when consuming excess power (in fact preventing that grid voltage gets too high). It does not mean paying for producing excess. There's an easy outlet for excess so no need to scare people off installing/producing more energy.
[–] gosub100 2 days ago
It could be for fire code compliance. Not everyone knows that too much current through a small wire creates heat.
[–] leonidasrup 2 days ago
Every wire, small or large, has a maximum current which can safely pass through. Circuit breakers are used prevent overloading of power lines and potential fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker

[–] gosub100 2 days ago
That's patronizing. My point is that electrical code requires the use of safety devices (breakers are only one). Idiots plugging wires together without oversight cause fires.
[–] michaelbuckbee 2 days ago
Yeah, if you're seen the recent rise in "balcony solar" it's more or less this.

People putting a couple panels up on their patio or whatever and having it charge one of those cooler sized batteries that they then run a few of their devices off of.

I've been thinking about a similar situation for my shed as I'd realized that the entire system would be cheaper than getting a line trenched to it.

[–] nsbk 2 days ago
Im running such system in sunny Valencia and with just two panels I’ve cut my monthly spend in half.

The system is quite smart, it charges the battery up from the grid when electricity is cheap and discharges during peak hours. Legally it’s limited to 800W, but you can set it up to a much higher output.

[–] tbdenney 2 days ago
May I ask what kind of system you are using? I am also in Valencia and would like to deploy a balcony panel kit but as a solar noob I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the options.
[–] nsbk 2 days ago
Definitely! I'm using a Zendure SolarFlow 800 Pro [0] and two solar panels. That unit is the battery and micro inverter all in one. It just plugs into one of your home outlets. I also installed a Shelly power meter [1] that the SolarFlow can talk to and learn about your usage trends, and also prevent it from feeding power back to the grid if you want it to.

The SolarFlow 800 Pro goes for around 500 euros, and good quality solar panels for ~120 each. ~100 for the power meter and ~70 for the brackets to install the panels on. Oh and maybe ~40 for cables.

You can also use the battery as a massive power bank with a 240V outlet on camping trips xD

[0] https://zendure.com/products/solarflow-800-pro [1] https://shellyspain.com/shelly-pro-em-50.html

[–] w3ll_w3ll_w3ll 2 days ago
In Italy you don't need to declare to the utility a balcony solar system if you are under 350W, even if you conenct it to your own line.

The inverter is smart enough to disconnect from your line if you are not consuming energy, so there is no risk of sending the power back to the distribution line.

[–] tialaramex 2 days ago
> The inverter is smart enough to disconnect from your line if you are not consuming energy, so there is no risk of sending the power back to the distribution line.

I expect what you're talking about is anti-islanding and so it's not interested in what you're consuming locally.

The anti-islanding works by detecting whether it can make a noticeable change to the constant 50Hz (or 60Hz depending on country) AC waveform, if it can that's an artificial waveform made by itself or similar devices in the neighbourhood and so the anti-islanding protection stops delivering power. But if when you try to change the waveform it won't budge, that's because there's say 10GW of much beefier power sources out there keeping it the same shape it always was, so it's OK to generate electricity.

[–] linsomniac 2 days ago
FWIW: This is NOT what "balcony solar" is. See my top level comment clarifying it.
[–] nsbk 2 days ago
Well, it's solar and sits in my balcony sooo...

Just kidding, I know what you mean. I actually started with true balcony solar and evolved into the battery+inverter setup and couldn't be happier

[–] throwawayffffas 2 days ago
I don't know what you have to do in terms of letting the grid know. But local authorities have stringent regulations about installation and almost definitely require permits and installation or inspection from vetted electricians.
[–] bluGill 2 days ago
Some of the local regulation is a good thing - ensure the firefighters don't get hurt if your house starts on fire. They also want to make sure a wind storm won't send panels flying through your neighbors house.

However other regulations are just corruption and increase prices.

[–] elif 2 days ago
In the developed world you need lots of expensive batteries and a massive array to make that work. Unless you are like going without heating and cooling, you are looking at mid five figures to six figures in equipment alone.

You also need to meet NEC for all the wiring and if you put any on your roof, it will have to be approved by the building inspector.

Lastly, for firefighter safety you also need to have functioning and clearly accessible and labeled emergency shutoff inspected and approved.

To be honest upgrading the meter and applying for net metering was maybe 5% of the red tape hassle for my install.

[–] xedrac 2 days ago
You can get a 32kwh battery for about $3500. 12kw in solar panels is about $2500. And an inverter is a couple thousand. Throw in since mounting equipment and wiring, and a big system that can power a 4000 sqft home can be had for around $10k. If you want it truly off grid, you'll want a bigger battery and more panels to make it through consecutive cloudy days.
[–] elif 2 days ago
You'd have to send me the link but you are possibly comparison shopping scams. Are these alibaba or eBay listings maybe?

To have a battery that truly powers a whole house circuit breaker and not just one flakey ambiguous amperage draw rating collection of power strips you're looking at significantly more. And it's not just for cloudy days. You'd have to size your array for the winter solstice to not be constantly running a deficit out of summer.

Please correct me where I'm wrong with your actual lived experience, but ive yet to encounter much of that, mostly just "I googled this thing and found something claiming to be a thing I think might work"

[–] xedrac 1 day ago
I have two Yixiang power 16kwh wallmount batteries ($2200 each). The 32kwh battery is $3699. They work remarkably well and have EVE LFP cells and a JK bms. They are not UL listed, so keep that in mind. My system uses a more expensive SolArk 18k inverter, and these two batteries easily power my whole house through the night, even this time of year. It's not enough to be off grid 100% of the time, but where I live, it's probably close to 80% of the time.
[–] elif 1 day ago
Ya that sounds believable except the product you claim to have doesn't seem to exist

https://yixiangpower.com/collections/us-stock

[–] xedrac 13 hours ago
Yes it does. It's the "51.2V Vertical Battery Pack" with the 314 Ah EVE cells. I have two of them connected in parallel, communicating with my Sol-Ark 18k inverter via a standard Pylontech protocol for closed-loop communication. Maybe I confused you by describing it as a "wall mount"? The vertical batteries are very often wall mounted. I should have just said "vertical" instead. Anyway, they have been fantastic batteries. Two in parallel can discharge roughly 19kW of power continuously, which is more than enough to power all of the big loads in my home at the same time. The only downside of the batteries is you have to configure the JK BMS yourself. But there's a lot of community resources for that: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1szaRxYzBHxwairtpCBBF...
[–] esperent 2 days ago
You don't need to of course but in many countries there's grants to purchase in the first place and then you can sell excess back to the grid, so it would be rather pointless not to.

My sister got it installed, about €15k worth, of which about a third was covered by grants and she's been selling enough back to the grid that she doesn't pay much bill at all for about 6 months of the year.

Unless she was some kind of off the grid absolutist, why wouldn't she have registered?

[–] ozim 2 days ago
Well no, I don’t think you can install anything that generates power without registering.

I remember in past people would make small wind turbines for their own use and would get fined in Europe. Because they expect you to sell the electricity and then buy it back - like you can’t use it directly as far as I remember, without paying taxes and stuff.

[–] leonidasrup 2 days ago
The regulations are different from country to country and also have changed a lot in past few years. For example the current situation in Germany is:

"Balcony solar power systems are generally permitted up to a capacity of 800 watts, with this limit referring to the maximum inverter output. Consumers must register their systems in the Federal Network Agency's market master data register. This registration is important to maintain an overview of installed solar energy and to ensure compliance with legal requirements."

" In many EU countries, balcony power plants are already permitted with higher power limits. Countries like the Netherlands , France , and Italy allow balcony power plants with a capacity of up to 2000 watts or even more. These countries have recognized that the integration of mini-PV systems plays a crucial role in achieving their climate goals. The Netherlands, in particular, actively promotes balcony power plants through tax breaks and financial incentives.

Another example is Austria , where the power limits are less strict, and systems with up to 800 watts per module are permitted. Consumers can install multiple modules, each with up to 800 watts. The total output of the solar system is therefore not as strictly limited as in Germany. For example, two 800-watt modules could be used, resulting in a potential total output of 1600 watts . In combination with a suitable inverter, more electricity could be used or fed into the grid. Here, too, simplified registration procedures and regional subsidies support the use of solar power. "

https://www.moe-balkonkraftwerk.de/en/blogs/news/balkonkraft...

[–] rsynnott 2 days ago
You've misremembered/misunderstood this, I think. You can certainly use self-generated electricity directly, pretty much everywhere. In many places you will need some sort of permit/inspection if you're self-generating and connected to the grid, though, because if done incorrectly that's potentially dangerous (in particular, in a power cut either you need to self-isolate or switch off your self-generation, because otherwise lines will unexpectedly have current.)
[–] modo_mario 2 days ago
Wrong. It's pretty much mandatory here and in much of Europe.

I disagree with it and a lot of other stuff but yeah...