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points by timpera 2 days ago | 0 comments

Bring back Boot Camp and let us install Windows 11 on these, you cowards!

Why the heck would one want to do that???

I recently snagged a really good deal on a Macbook (very nice hardware!), but the more I use it, the more I struggle with macOS (even though a few utilities can help bring some of Windows' features).

I used to be able to completely boot into Windows on my Intel mac a few years ago, but Apple no longer supports it for some reason. It's a shame, especially since the ARM64 version of Windows 11 has gotten very good now.

It would also be nice to be able to install Linux too. It's my own hardware, after all!

[–] ericmay 2 days ago

> It would also be nice to be able to install Linux too. It's my own hardware, after all!

You can install both Windows and Linux on MacBooks. For Windows you may need to buy Parallels[1] or something but you can do it.

[1] https://www.parallels.com/products/desktop/

[–] timpera 2 days ago

Are you sure? It is my understanding that Parallels is just a VM, like VMWare Fusion, and that there's no way to natively dual boot Windows on Apple Silicon.

Looks like you're right about Linux though, I didn't know about Asahi Linux. Thank you for sharing.

[–] ericmay 2 days ago

It achieves the same thing or close enough. Apple isn't going to spend engineering resources (i.e. time and money) to build an easy way to install Windows. There isn't really a point for them to do so. There are other ways around it to be able to actually install Windows 11 specifically but Parallels is going to be your best bet.

Sadly I also can't natively install my Nintendo Switch software on my Xbox.

[–] well_ackshually 2 days ago

Apple is spending engineering resources every day to _prevent you_ from installing what you want on your own device. They're actively spending R&D money to fuck you over.

[–] mrkstu 2 days ago

This just isn't true on the Mac- as noted, Linux installs fine. The same path is open to MS if they want to patch Windows to install on a Mac.

[–] ericmay 2 days ago

I want them to prevent me from installing things on my device. It's a feature that I intentionally pay for, not a bug.

[–] freeone3000 2 days ago

Windows for ARM requires specific support for each device. They don’t have it for arm macs - Windows 11 simply will not boot.

As for linux, https://asahilinux.org/ currently supports M1/M2 quite well, and is approaching ready on M3+

[–] TheDong 2 days ago

I purchase the hardware, I should be able to do what I want with it. I want apple hardware for the good processor specs and battery life and general hardware quality.

Apple should be forced to release the necessary hardware specs to develop drivers so that I can use my hardware I purchased as I want. They should be required to let me own my own signing keys to boot my own software.

Anyway, I'd personally want bootcamp because it's a step closer to being able to install Linux, an operating system that lets me have a good tiling window manager that works.

Why the heck would anyone want to use macOS willingly, where the window manager and file browser are both complete unconfigurable trash.

[–] rTX5CMRXIfFG 2 days ago

There's just no getting "then don't buy it" for people who obviously don't agree with Apple's terms and conditions, is there? Not every product sold in the market will be done your way, and you can't act oppressed here because if you don't like Apple computers, you have a ton of other options...

[–] jimbokun 2 days ago

Yes but there is the larger question of whether you should be able to install any software you want on hardware you own. Or does Apple still control it even though you paid for it.

[–] rTX5CMRXIfFG 2 days ago

I don’t believe there’s a question at all. You actually can’t just install any software you want on any hardware that you own. You don’t even have the right to compel companies to design computers only in such a way that appeals to your personal preferences.

[–] bigyabai 2 days ago

Apple's terms are completely arbitrary. People will complain about this until the computers are capable of it again, because there is no legitimate technical reason that Apple Silicon cannot support third-party OSes.

[–] philistine 2 days ago

So you want to compel Apple to write Windows drivers? You can't just install Windows on anything you want, the manufacturer has to make sure it works with Windows, and Apple is truly over playing nice with Windows.

On top of that, Windows 11 requires a TPM and Apple's implementation of the Secure Enclave is probably completely incompatible. The short moment in time when both computer families were in complete technological harmony is over.

[–] bigyabai 2 days ago

The Linux community managed it. TPM isn't a hard requirement for Win11, Apple's SOCs are still in harmony with Windows' vision for computing.

To repeat myself, there is no valid technical reason that Apple cannot commit to documenting their platform for third-parties. People will complain, because it's an arbitrary choice on Apple's behalf to provide less transparent support than AMD, Intel or even the famously capricious Nvidia.

This has the knock-on effect of limiting macOS' exposure to third-party OS competition, enabling Apple to subsidize macOS support with SaaS offerings and advertisements. Apple customers have been increasingly asking for official Linux support on Apple Silicon, because macOS and iPadOS are not legitimate competitors to Windows or Linux. Apple Silicon is undoubtedly the second-class citizen of the PC world, and it's entirely Apple's choice to limit their hardware like that.

[–] philistine 2 days ago

Thing you got wrong 1: TPM is a hard requirement. > https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/security/devices...

Thing you got wrong 2: iPadOS is half the usage of tablet operating systems. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste...

[–] SJMG 2 days ago

> Why the heck would anyone want to use macOS willingly, where the window manager and file browser are both complete unconfigurable trash.

How about suffer a lightly deoptimized workflow on one platform for the interoperability of the ecosystem…?

[–] layer8 2 days ago

Because not everyone likes macOS and dislikes Windows.

[–] ta8903 2 days ago

Yeah, I don't get it.

If you could install linux, however, then I would buy one yesterday.

[–] SuperShibe 2 days ago

you can!

https://asahilinux.org/

[–] TheDong 2 days ago

Asahi linux only supports older M series processors still, and there's a lot of caveats with it.

[–] tonyedgecombe 2 days ago

There's always a lot of caveats with linux.

[–] SJMG 2 days ago

Run software without crossover/parallels/wine/GPTK

[–] alt227 2 days ago

Choice and freedom?

[–] dwaltrip 2 days ago

gaming

[–] freeone3000 2 days ago

Windows 11 is missing devicetree support for arm macs. It won’t boot.

You might be better off waiting for an Asahi linux update.

[–] edude03 2 days ago

I hate the implication that apple is doing anything to stop you from booting windows like how phones prevent you from installing custom roms. The boot loader is unlocked, there is nothing stopping you from installing windows, apple just (rightfully so IMO) doesn't invest money in maintaining windows drivers for their custom silicon because... why would they?

I'm pretty sure bootcamp was only a thing specifically because the intel macs were essentially white box windows laptops with a nicer than average trackpad for the time. Trackpad drivers is a much smaller lift when everything else practically works out of the box

[–] mococa 2 days ago

Do you want AIshitification on your mac?

[–] timpera 2 days ago

No, I just want to be able to boot into Windows 11. It worked really well on Intel macs.

[–] Synaesthesia 2 days ago

You can with Parallels.