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points by nonethewiser 2 days ago | 0 comments
>We used to call those dragnets which are illegal under the 4th amendment

How is surveillance related to dragnets? A dragnet being an indiscriminate stop and search of suspects that sweeps up lots of people. Police have always been able to watch people and see their license plate. It's the wide-spread stop and search with no specific suspicion that makes something a dragnet.

This plate reader surveillance network, for better or worse, is the exact opposite.

The example they lead with in the article is the police pulling over a woman who spent too much time driving in the left lane. Stupid. But targeted.

[–] taurath 2 days ago
Widespread recording and use in a cross-database is also a dragnet - its not one camera or cameras in a specific space, its cameras everywhere, accessible from anywhere, and its use constitutes a search (all IMO).

If you continue the argument that surveillance used to proactively rather than reactively find evidence is not a search, then with technology as it is today functionally there can be no expectation of privacy in public (somewhat fair) nor in private, given how widely distributed technology is - one could easily argue that technology's wide distribution is in part because of an expectation of privacy.

There must be a line for which people can expect privacy, or else privacy cannot exist. Its a fundamental value of liberty.

[–] antonvs 2 days ago
Generating suspects from mass data collection is close to the definition of a dragnet, both metaphorically and legally. The only difference is it's now being done electronically.

This isn't a case where they've identified a suspect using some specific investigative lead, reasonable suspicion, or probable cause.

Instead, they're using a widespread fishing tactic - a "dragnet" - to gather information in order to generate suspects without any reasonable suspicion. This kind of behavior has been found illegal in the past, because it clearly violates constitutional protections.

[–] sleepybrett 2 days ago
Judges in some flock related cases seem to be disagreeing with your assessment on the plate reader surveillance network.
[–] mixdup 2 days ago
I mean in many (most?) states travelling in the left lane is a moving violation

Using it to fish for other violations is where it crosses into the fuzzy and sometimes outright illegal

The counter to this is demand that they write you the ticket for the moving violation, don't answer any questions other than providing the legally required license, registration, and insurance, and move on

If they don't have evidence of a crime, they can't detain you forever on the roadside

[–] nonethewiser 2 days ago
>Using it to fish for other violations is where it crosses into the fuzzy and sometimes outright illegal

OK.

Where is the dragnet?

[–] wyre 2 days ago
Do you own stock in Flock or Axon? I don't believe you are actually asking this is good faith.

Flock is a dragnet. It allows police to coordinate around apprehending suspects, which is the definition of dragnet, if you look at any dictionary.

[–] nonethewiser 2 days ago
Flock isn't publicly traded. How could I own stock in it?

>I don't believe you are actually asking this is good faith.

Well assume it, those are the rules.

Apprehending suspects is most certainly not the definition of a dragnet. This is precisely my point. Apprehending people indiscriminately is the definition of a dragnet. Stopping a specific person for something that isnt a crime may not be legal but its not a dragnet.

[–] wyre 2 days ago
You could be a private investor, an employee, etc. Just because a company is publicly traded doesn't mean you can't be financially invested with the success of a company.

Read it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragnet_(policing)

[–] nonethewiser 2 days ago
Could be, am not.

Do you understand why flock is not a dragnet now?

[–] wyre 2 days ago
No, you have done absolutely nothing to help me understand your perspective. You have only disagreed.
[–] antiframe 2 days ago
> Flock isn't publicly traded. How could I own stock in it?

Not all stock is publicly traded. I own stock that you can't buy on the exchange. It's quite common actually.

[–] nonethewiser 2 days ago
15.4% of families have private equity. Not unheard of but not what I would call quite common https://www.sec.gov/files/exploring-accredited-investors-jun...
[–] antiframe 2 days ago
I searched that PDF for family/families and found nothing, but I did find that you are actually even more correct. Most of that report is about accredited investors. Less than 5% of non-accredited investors own private securities. So, it's actually quite rare.

That said, to answer your question, you could own Flock stock. Private companies often offer stock to employees and others.

[–] mixdup 2 days ago
I'm not parent comment OP
[–] nonethewiser 2 days ago
You replied to my comment acknowledging that stopping her may be wrong but doesnt constitute a dragnet.
[–] simoncion 2 days ago
> A dragnet being an indiscriminate stop and search...

Nope. You need not stop everyone -or even anyone!- you search for it to be a dragnet search.

A search that is widespread and indiscriminate is a dragnet search... regardless of whether it's done by agents of the government or by the private sector. [0]

The thing being caught in the dragnet is not people, but information about with whom those people caught in the dragnet associate, where they spend their time, and other details about their private lives that -frankly- the government has no business knowing without either paying the cost to have a police follow those surveilled around, or justifying beginning and continuing the search of specific individuals to a court and receiving its approval.

[0] I'd love for the courts to start generally taking notice of the fact that a private sector company for whom the overwhelming majority of its customers are public-sector law enforcement is very likely to be defacto acting as an agent of the state. Private companies acting as agents of the state have far more strict regulations that apply to them, and it'd be really good for courts to catch up with the current situation on the ground regarding the public sector's "partnerships" with private-sector companies like Flock, Axon, and similar.