"... Think of what version control software could mean for the Congress [...]. If bills were created under a system where strike-throughs and additions were carefully tracked, the public would know which legislator made which change to a proposed piece of legislation as it made its way through the Capitol.
At last, there would be transparency in the legislative process. Best-case scenario, it would shame legislators from inserting language against the public interest and only meant to reward political contributors; at worst, it would make such insertions public and allow the voters to punish the politicians who made them. ..."
(from https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/23/business/media/23link.htm... )
[–] mcdonje 1 day ago
[–] estearum 1 day ago
[–] tomaskafka 1 day ago
[–] godelski 1 day ago
To put it another way, I still put a lock on my door even though lockpicks exist. I still use passwords on my accounts even though people could guess or brute force them.
Don't trivialize things to uselessness
[–] estearum 1 day ago
For example, we could behead people convicted of corrupting or being corrupted. That would be a significant deterrent.
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
This has historically done nothing for corruption and everything for one-party rule.
[–] cael450 1 day ago
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
We also need law establishing mandatory retirement for Congressmen and judges, including justices, and a system where each President appoints (with Senate consent) one and only one justice to SCOTUS. Finally, yes, pass McCain-Feingold, pass a SCOTUS ethics bill and make corruption charges easier to bring.
[–] kown7 1 day ago
[–] estearum 1 day ago
It's also untrue to suggest that any intervention will necessarily create a worse outcome than the status quo.
[–] onefiftymike 1 day ago
But voting today is such a performative act for them. There are great pieces of legislation that can't pass because someone has labeled it as radical so one side or the other can't be seen with their name on it so they don't pass it even though they know it is good and would benefit their constituents.
[–] xxpor 1 day ago
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
People worrying about money in politics are overemphasizing the instrumentality of money, rather than the underlying structural incentives that tend toward special interests dominating complex issues.
If money were removed from the equation, the concentrations of power, motivations to influence it, and asymmetries in those motivations will all continue to exist; political influence will just be exercised through other means, and some particular faction or class of people will still be at the sweet spot of having the greatest competence and the greatest motivation to apply those means.
A lot of people are reluctant to acknowledge it, but this is inherent to politics itself, and there is no straightforward way to fix it, other than to limit the reach of political power.
[–] WillowWithAWand 1 day ago
It certainly would be naive to think that simply “getting money out of politics” would “fix” things but it is still a desirable goal for anyone who, themselves, does not currently have extremely large quantities of money.
[–] snapplebobapple 1 day ago
[–] yeahwhatever10 1 day ago
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
It sounds like they were defrauding people into giving them donations under false pretenses, and the transparency measures were effective at mitigating that.
There's quite a lot of strange bias in your comment: the unjustified disjunction between "constituents" and "donors", the concept of a "donor class" as some singular bloc rather than an arbitrary aggregation of anyone who donates on behalf on all sides of all issues, the idea that donations are more important than the actual votes, etc.
[–] snowwrestler 1 day ago
There are no pretenses in political giving (at least at the U.S. federal level), because it is illegal to tie a donation to a particular position, vote, or action by the politician. It’s called a quid pro quo and is the test for whether a donation is a bribe.
In the U.S. the political system is based on people, not positions or policy. Donations to a politician are to the person. It’s not a proxy for buying an outcome.
In practice, of course people are going to support politicians who they like and think agree with them. But under the law, a politician can’t rip you off by taking your money and then voting contrary to your desires.
[–] ninalanyon 1 day ago
Donations are always bribes.
> Donations to a politician are to the person.
Isn't that how bribery is normally done?
> It’s not a proxy for buying an outcome.
Perhaps not precisely, but it is a proxy for attempting to influence an outcome.
> under the law, a politician can’t rip you off by taking your money and then voting contrary to your desires.
Isn't that in conflict with:
> it is illegal to tie a donation to a particular position, vote, or action by the politician.
Are you saying that if I give a politician money and express my desire that they are then legally bound to vote according to my desire? Sounds like buying votes; I'm pretty sure that's not condoned by the law.
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
[–] snowwrestler 1 day ago
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
[–] snowwrestler 1 day ago
It is not. You’re not reading carefully enough.
[–] catlifeonmars 1 day ago
[–] JoBrad 1 day ago
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
If you have a system of open transparency, then everyone who is motivated to pay attention has the means to do so. If they're not paying attention, it means they're not sufficiently motivated, and are choosing not to pay attention, not being constrained artificially.
This seems to be converging to some sort of "false consciousness" argument, where someone speculatively projects motivations and intentions onto other parties, then criticizes those other parties for not acting in accordance with the motivations strangers have projected onto them.
Needless to say, these sorts of arguments are utterly disingenuous, and in this case, somewhat ironic, because the people arguing that outcomes should conform to their speculative ideologies -- even in defiance of what the public themselves are manifestly choosing -- are themselves special interests trying to exert their own influence over politics.
[–] klrefg 1 day ago
Yes, exactly, people who profit directly from certain decisions can afford to spend a lot more time and resources on this than ordinary voters.
[–] Gormo 16 hours ago
1. A closed an opaque political system operates outside of direct public view. Those with the strongest interest in influencing it invest efforts into gaming the system, co-opting its participants, and manipulating it through back channels also outside of public view. Those who suffer from the negative externalities of political intervention have no visibility into the process that created them.
2. An open, transparent political system operates in full public view. Behavior of politicians, relationships with special interests, and their explicit votes are all public record. Those most motivated will still invest more heavily into influencing the political process, but those who are affected by negative externalities have visibility into what's creating them, and if they should become motivated to act, e.g. if the effects of those externalities hit a tipping point, they have the knowledge and means to do so.
The perfect world that you're envisioning depends on politicians being presumptively trustworthy, well-intentioned, and having perfect knowledge of what their constituents' interests actually are. None of that is possible, and shielding politicians from direct accountability will only serve to make them more beholden to the small set of interests best suited to navigating their way into the system.
[–] jonahhorowitz 2 days ago
[–] p-e-w 2 days ago
Our problem is that the press isn’t doing their job, not that legislation doesn’t have a commit graph. The latter, even if it existed, would not fix the former.
[–] hvb2 1 day ago
The general public isn't willing to pay for this, so it's very hard to do this. Especially given that most of this isn't exactly going to generate tons of views.
Let's be honest, in general, the public is very upset about all the injustice they perceive. But the public also lost all interest in the process, some can't even be bothered to vote once every other year....
It's too easy to blame others for your own inaction
[–] dotancohen 1 day ago
> But the public also lost all interest in the process, some can't even be bothered to vote once every other year....
In the 1920s the German speaking world got a book whose first three chapters just hammer in how important it is for the average citizen to take an interest in his local politics. That book was subsequently banned by almost every European country in the decades since. I'm the only person I know who has personally read it, even though it is one of the most derided books in history.I highly recommend the first three chapters to anybody who thinks they don't need to understand their local politics.
[–] 1718627440 1 day ago
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
[–] neutronicus 1 day ago
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
The rough truth is you don’t need the general public to. Just the elites, broadly defined.
[–] hvb2 23 hours ago
And here we are.
[–] bahmboo 2 days ago
However you are proposing that journalists as a homogenous group do some extra work. I think that's a great thing but I don't get why you say the press aren't doing their job when they are at an historical low of compensation and respect.
If sounds like you are outsourcing your rage at the legislature and the press and journalists are the problem?
Sticking to the FTA someone made a first step in version tracking legislative texts but you do not think they've done enough?
[–] aspect0545 2 days ago
[–] msdz 2 days ago
[–] teiferer 2 days ago
Of course a tool itself doesn't solve the problem. You need somebody to use the tool. But the tool makes it easier to solve the problem.
[–] safety1st 2 days ago
In the present day, mainstream journalists won't be meaningful advocates for democracy and the public interest any time soon. It's time to acknowledge that this idea is wishful thinking. The root cause is changes to the law like the Telecom Act of 1996 which allowed for the consolidation of old media under a few corporations.
For many years these mainstream journalists have been required to support corruption, cronyism, the centralization of power, and the increase of corporate power in order to retain their jobs. The law needs to be changed before they can become a net benefit to society again.
[–] crabmusket 1 day ago
I'd actually argue that this is the wrong way around. Being able to git diff legislation is very good, but mainly for humans, who need tools to make work tractable.
An agent will use whatever interface is available, including no interference, won't give up due to the task being too onerous, and can be scaled by paying for more tokens. It could simply brute force diff the raw text, writing bespoke Python and regexes, etc.
LLMs make brute forcing intellect possible. It's humans who need finely crafted tools.
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
I'm personally not interested in being dependent on the press -- which is just other people pursuing their own interests and assumptions -- to interpret artificially opaque sources, if those sources can just be made accessible instead.
Having a dynamic and pluralistic press is a good thing, and we need more investigative journalism, to discover what isn't visible to the public, but I'm not sure there's a lot of value in the sort of interpretive journalism you're proposing.
[–] mschuster91 2 days ago
The problem is, barely anyone is willing to pay the press for doing this job.
Outrage farming and clickbait make money, honest reporting does not.
[–] faangguyindia 2 days ago
[–] callmeal 2 days ago
Well, it's practically impossible to get a person to do something when their paycheck depends on their not doing it.
[–] sixdimensional 2 days ago
I do think there are some Markdown-based open source projects that might fit the bill.
[–] p-e-w 2 days ago
[–] hnlmorg 1 day ago
Yet there is a demand for version control for nontechnical people. And I know this because I’ve seen enough files called “copy of important thing” or “important thing 2”.
[–] sixdimensional 1 day ago
[–] p-e-w 1 day ago
This demonstrates LACK OF demand for technical version control, since the system you describe has been used since forever and found to be good enough.
[–] hnlmorg 1 day ago
It doesn’t prove that they don’t want a better solution should it have the right UX. And, as I said in my original comment, the current UX for version control in documents both sucks and is often hidden away where people might not even be aware it exists.
[–] unsnap_biceps 2 days ago
[–] sixdimensional 1 day ago
I was trying to avoid naming any products on purpose, but, for example, there is a commercial product that is easy enough for most people and affordable that would work for this- and there are a few open source clones that come close.
The open source clones are not quite polished enough for non-technical users, but they are the closest thing I can think of, basically crossing over a wiki + Markdown for knowledgebase creation with Git-like versioning.
[–] refurb 2 days ago
Insert language you know will never get enough votes
Don’t strike out but add language to make it useless
Plus the bill sponsor often makes changes others ask for, so the true author isn’t noted
It would be a mess and ignored by the public after a while
[–] somenameforme 1 day ago
This is often especially cynical because [popular thing x] is often something that neither party wants to pass. So a very recent example of this was an act against insider trading by politicians, that was bundled with a voter id law. Neither side wants to clamp down on insider trading from politicians, so the entire act was DOA. It was nothing but bread and circuses.
[–] lopis 2 days ago
[–] sharpshadow 1 day ago
[–] 3form 2 days ago
[–] DavidSchor 1 day ago
[–] xmprt 1 day ago
[–] matwood 1 day ago
[–] xmprt 1 day ago
What I'm getting at is that, if we need to make process changes anyway in order to actually make the technology work for us, then the real solution is in the process and not in the technology.
[–] JumpCrisscross 2 days ago
You’d just got a system of favors for who inserts what language. You’d hand tough edits to your safe-seat colleagues and insert messaging amendments designed to get voted down for own comms.
When a measure becomes a target yada yada.
(Note: this proposal is for the U.S. code. Not bills. Git for the USC works.)
[–] franktankbank 1 day ago
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
Git is a tool, or more accurately in this case, an interface. The measure is the attribution of edits.
[–] franktankbank 1 day ago
I'm still not clear how that defines a specific metric.
[–] imnotsuraboutth 1 day ago
[–] DanielHB 1 day ago
I couldn't care less about crypto currencies, but crypto contracts had the potential to replace much (although not all) of the bureaucracy around governments and justice systems. I am very sad it didn't take off.
[–] kelseyfrog 2 days ago
The House Office of the Legislative Counsel is non-partisan, impartial, and confidential. Whether transparency has merit or not, tracking provenance would make the office partisan. Is more partisanship in government not a concern?
The second issue with transparency is that communication between legislators and legislative counsel member is subject to the attorney-client relationship. Breaking attorney-client privilege is a serious decision. Knowing how such a change would affect the organization and its members is not something to be taken lightly.
A more convincing argument for transparency would address impartiality and confidentiality. This is pretty clearly a Chesterton's fence type situation where advocating to change a system should anticipate criticisms. Addressing opposition preemptively is an implicit demonstration of knowing why the system exists which is table stakes for changing it.
[–] kfogel 1 day ago
When the HOLC provides wording, they do so in response to a request from an elected member or that member's staff, right? What I'm getting at is that it doesn't matter whether provenance is found via the commit author or via some other change-associated metadata -- the key thing is making precise change provenance trackable and (perhaps after some predefined delay) public. This would mainly aid journalists.
Is the HOLC currently functioning as an anonymizing service for changes to in-progress legislation? And if so, is that by design, or more by gradual and organic evolution?
Fundamentally, if we can't get at that provenance information in a reliable way right now at all, then version-control-style tracking would be a pretty big qualitative change in how things are done: information that wasn't available, except through unofficial channels, would now be available (again, maybe with some time delay or whatever, but in the long run it would be available). On the other hand, if that information is currently obtainable but is just not easy to obtain, then this would be more of an incremental improvement: since journalists and others with the requisite know-how could get the information right now, but maybe have to jump through hoops to do so, this would just reduce the number or height of the hoops.
I don't know which of those two scenarios best describes reality, but maybe you do?
[–] JoshTriplett 1 day ago
Tracking who added what language is in no way partisan.
[–] pbhjpbhj 1 day ago
It's like the people that complain their favoured politician has more scrutiny on them when actually that politician just commits lots of crimes.
[–] kelseyfrog 1 day ago
[–] kelseyfrog 1 day ago
2. It will create an incentive structure that will reflect the goals of political parties.
Transparency brings the office into the political sphere. Nothing in the political sphere escapes partisanship. It's pretty clear that no one knew this office existed before I brought it up and folks thought that lawmakers drafted their own bills. The fact that we're even now talking about it in terms of politics is evidence that it will devolve into partisan politics.
I get your instinct - transparency is in general a net good. But the more public an office is, the more it is drawn into partisanship.
Politics is especially prone to engineers disease and this is a great example of it. It assumes a technical solution in the spirit of transparency applies to complex human, social, and political domains where those frameworks do not neatly fit. When someone points out engineers disease, have some introspection before questioning their motives.
[–] franktankbank 1 day ago
[–] kelseyfrog 1 day ago
[–] zoobab 2 days ago
[–] zoobab 1 day ago
[–] pbhjpbhj 1 day ago
[–] zoobab 1 day ago
We could also let people vote directly on their own laws without intermediaries.
[–] citizenpaul 2 days ago
[–] Henchman21 2 days ago
[–] antihipocrat 1 day ago
[–] Henchman21 1 day ago
[–] mdup 1 day ago
https://juriblio.fr/pourquoi-juriblio
It shows git-like diffs plus an AI summary of what changed. There is no author attribution though - I'm not sure there is a business use case for it, lawyers don't care about who wrote a specific law.
[–] codethief 1 day ago
Git commits get rebased, squashed, cherry-picked and edited retroactively, written during pair or mob programming sessions or rewritten during code review. And we also know that commit messages often suck. As a result, commits almost never tell you the full story about who exactly contributed, in what order or why.
The process is even messier when writing new bills. They get passed around between different departments, discussed & edited in various committees, etc.
Sure, you could force all participating parties to use git, prevent them from force-pushing or rewriting history even on their "feature branches", get them to sign their every commit, etc. But what you'd then likely just end up with is most negotiation & editing happening out-of-band.
Besides: At the end of the day it's the (majority of the) parliament that enacts a given law, so in my book they are all responsible, even if in practice laws get written by a small subset of people.
[–] franktankbank 1 day ago
[–] paganel 1 day ago
By this point "the public" just doesn't care for this sort of stuff, we just want (stabler, for those still employed) jobs and day-to-day life that is not expensive as hell anymore. What the middle-class elites now call "democracy" has just become a glasperlenspiel, i.e. nothing of real interest to us, the masses, just a social differentiator between said well-to-do middle-classes.
More generally, the sooner us, the masses, spell it out that democracy is well and truly dead the better, that way maybe we can do something to alleviate our situation, but I'm afraid that won't happen anytime soon.
It's essentially an extension of the Sunshine Act of 1976, which made congressional votes public. There were claims that before it was enacted, legislators were able to vote their consciences, but then lie to donors and tell them they voted for their interests instead of their constituents' interests.
Since it passed, the public has been paying attention, but not like the donor class has been. Something needs to be not only bad, but have some sort of novel or salacious quality to make the news. If it's not near an election, people forget, if they paid attention to begin with. Donors pay attention. Representatives know this.
Ultimately, the problem is the money in politics, but this sort of thing can exacerbate the effects.