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points by kfogel 2 days ago | 0 comments
NYT, 2007:

"... Think of what version control software could mean for the Congress [...]. If bills were created under a system where strike-throughs and additions were carefully tracked, the public would know which legislator made which change to a proposed piece of legislation as it made its way through the Capitol.

At last, there would be transparency in the legislative process. Best-case scenario, it would shame legislators from inserting language against the public interest and only meant to reward political contributors; at worst, it would make such insertions public and allow the voters to punish the politicians who made them. ..."

(from https://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/23/business/media/23link.htm... )

[–] mcdonje 1 day ago
There's a good chance it could have the opposite effect. The public doesn't pay as much attention to the workings of the government as donors do.

It's essentially an extension of the Sunshine Act of 1976, which made congressional votes public. There were claims that before it was enacted, legislators were able to vote their consciences, but then lie to donors and tell them they voted for their interests instead of their constituents' interests.

Since it passed, the public has been paying attention, but not like the donor class has been. Something needs to be not only bad, but have some sort of novel or salacious quality to make the news. If it's not near an election, people forget, if they paid attention to begin with. Donors pay attention. Representatives know this.

Ultimately, the problem is the money in politics, but this sort of thing can exacerbate the effects.

[–] estearum 1 day ago
Yeah the real answer is banning private funding from politics in as many ways as possible.
[–] tomaskafka 1 day ago
As long as there are people who allocate billions with a sign of the pen, with zero personal responsibility and skin in the game, there will be whole industries dedicated to swaying their hand.
[–] godelski 1 day ago
I think everyone understands this already. But there's also a big difference between making it easy for industries to sway politicians and difficult. That's what actually matters.

To put it another way, I still put a lock on my door even though lockpicks exist. I still use passwords on my accounts even though people could guess or brute force them.

Don't trivialize things to uselessness

[–] estearum 1 day ago
Right, and there can be laws that make their efforts more or less effective.

For example, we could behead people convicted of corrupting or being corrupted. That would be a significant deterrent.

[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
> we could behead people convicted of corrupting or being corrupted

This has historically done nothing for corruption and everything for one-party rule.

[–] cael450 1 day ago
Yeah, all we really need to do is pass laws that make some of this corruption actually illegal instead of "constitutionally protected speech."
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
We need to amend the Constitution to strike pardon power and give the Congress the power to pass property taxes (aka wealth taxes) and regulate donations to campaigns, candidates, parties and partisan causes.

We also need law establishing mandatory retirement for Congressmen and judges, including justices, and a system where each President appoints (with Senate consent) one and only one justice to SCOTUS. Finally, yes, pass McCain-Feingold, pass a SCOTUS ethics bill and make corruption charges easier to bring.

[–] kown7 1 day ago
While I like the sentiment, the law of unintended consequences will most likely strike back hard.
[–] estearum 1 day ago
I don't think this is necessarily a good policy. I'm saying it's obviously blatantly untrue to suggest that just because people will always want to corrupt public officials, that they will be equally successful in all possible universes.

It's also untrue to suggest that any intervention will necessarily create a worse outcome than the status quo.

[–] onefiftymike 1 day ago
I don't know what the answer to public votes is. I see the benefit in them voting their conscience. But I also see how they can vote against my interests and then lie through their teeth that they are helping me if I can't see their record.

But voting today is such a performative act for them. There are great pieces of legislation that can't pass because someone has labeled it as radical so one side or the other can't be seen with their name on it so they don't pass it even though they know it is good and would benefit their constituents.

[–] xxpor 1 day ago
is money the problem or just that most people don't care about most things, but a few people REALLY care about a few things? There's plenty of groups without much money that still gum up the works because they're persistent.
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
This is a basic concept of Public Choice Theory.

People worrying about money in politics are overemphasizing the instrumentality of money, rather than the underlying structural incentives that tend toward special interests dominating complex issues.

If money were removed from the equation, the concentrations of power, motivations to influence it, and asymmetries in those motivations will all continue to exist; political influence will just be exercised through other means, and some particular faction or class of people will still be at the sweet spot of having the greatest competence and the greatest motivation to apply those means.

A lot of people are reluctant to acknowledge it, but this is inherent to politics itself, and there is no straightforward way to fix it, other than to limit the reach of political power.

[–] WillowWithAWand 1 day ago
In a vacuum I absolutely agree with you. In fact my PoliSci 101 prof defined politics as “who has power and how they use it” but in a system like ours where money also is a form of power (or at least a force multiplier of power) unto itself, money helps concentrate political power into fewer hands and magnify the ways they can use it.

It certainly would be naive to think that simply “getting money out of politics” would “fix” things but it is still a desirable goal for anyone who, themselves, does not currently have extremely large quantities of money.

[–] Gormo 1 day ago
How do you figure money itself as a source of power, independent of political influence?
[–] snapplebobapple 1 day ago
It's slightly more complex though isn't? Because the actual problem is how to limit the reach of political power while still having an effective government.
[–] xxpor 1 day ago
Thank you, this is a much more coherent way of saying it.
[–] tern 1 day ago
Yeah, the right mental model might be:

- The donor class is really in charge, and completely unaccountable

- Public servants are our representatives in a fight against them

- Protecting them from exploitation by the donors is in our interest

[–] sbseitz 1 day ago
The politicians don't either, the lobbying groups do it :)
[–] yeahwhatever10 1 day ago
Because donors can't just count?
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
It's amazing how you've managed to position "politicians were pursuing their own hidden agendas and then lying about it" as a desirable state of affairs.

It sounds like they were defrauding people into giving them donations under false pretenses, and the transparency measures were effective at mitigating that.

There's quite a lot of strange bias in your comment: the unjustified disjunction between "constituents" and "donors", the concept of a "donor class" as some singular bloc rather than an arbitrary aggregation of anyone who donates on behalf on all sides of all issues, the idea that donations are more important than the actual votes, etc.

[–] snowwrestler 1 day ago
> It sounds like they were defrauding people into giving them donations under false pretenses, and the transparency measures were effective at mitigating that.

There are no pretenses in political giving (at least at the U.S. federal level), because it is illegal to tie a donation to a particular position, vote, or action by the politician. It’s called a quid pro quo and is the test for whether a donation is a bribe.

In the U.S. the political system is based on people, not positions or policy. Donations to a politician are to the person. It’s not a proxy for buying an outcome.

In practice, of course people are going to support politicians who they like and think agree with them. But under the law, a politician can’t rip you off by taking your money and then voting contrary to your desires.

[–] ninalanyon 1 day ago
> the test for whether a donation is a bribe.

Donations are always bribes.

> Donations to a politician are to the person.

Isn't that how bribery is normally done?

> It’s not a proxy for buying an outcome.

Perhaps not precisely, but it is a proxy for attempting to influence an outcome.

> under the law, a politician can’t rip you off by taking your money and then voting contrary to your desires.

Isn't that in conflict with:

> it is illegal to tie a donation to a particular position, vote, or action by the politician.

Are you saying that if I give a politician money and express my desire that they are then legally bound to vote according to my desire? Sounds like buying votes; I'm pretty sure that's not condoned by the law.

[–] Gormo 1 day ago
Which makes the initial promise to vote a certain way in exchange for donations itself illegal. That seems fine. So what is the problem with transparency, again?
[–] snowwrestler 1 day ago
What initial promise? You’ve fabricated something that was not in the comment you replied to.
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
This subthread is a discussion about pertains to politicians misrepresenting their voting intentions in order to get donations. My comment was a response to an argument that allowing politicians to do this is a good thing because it allows them to vote their "consciences" while pretending otherwise to people donating to them.
[–] snowwrestler 1 day ago
> This subthread is a discussion about pertains to politicians misrepresenting their voting intentions in order to get donations.

It is not. You’re not reading carefully enough.

[–] catlifeonmars 1 day ago
In practice there is a donor class and constituent class who are largely not the same set of people. The point you’re missing is how the donor class is instrumental in influencing the actual language that goes into the laws, this happens peripheral to the democratic process. For example, a spending bill where the language favors one vendor over others because that vendor paid to submit their suggested language. This is not hypothetical btw.
[–] JoBrad 1 day ago
My read was that the people who are getting fleeced aren’t paying enough attention.
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
That seems like an assumption, and a counterintuitive one: wouldn't you expect someone getting "fleeced" by the political system to be motivated to pay attention due to that very fact?

If you have a system of open transparency, then everyone who is motivated to pay attention has the means to do so. If they're not paying attention, it means they're not sufficiently motivated, and are choosing not to pay attention, not being constrained artificially.

This seems to be converging to some sort of "false consciousness" argument, where someone speculatively projects motivations and intentions onto other parties, then criticizes those other parties for not acting in accordance with the motivations strangers have projected onto them.

Needless to say, these sorts of arguments are utterly disingenuous, and in this case, somewhat ironic, because the people arguing that outcomes should conform to their speculative ideologies -- even in defiance of what the public themselves are manifestly choosing -- are themselves special interests trying to exert their own influence over politics.

[–] klrefg 1 day ago
> motivated to pay attention has the means to do so.

Yes, exactly, people who profit directly from certain decisions can afford to spend a lot more time and resources on this than ordinary voters.

[–] Gormo 16 hours ago
Right, that's basic Public Choice Theory, and it holds in all cases. With respect to transparency, there are really only two potential scenarios:

1. A closed an opaque political system operates outside of direct public view. Those with the strongest interest in influencing it invest efforts into gaming the system, co-opting its participants, and manipulating it through back channels also outside of public view. Those who suffer from the negative externalities of political intervention have no visibility into the process that created them.

2. An open, transparent political system operates in full public view. Behavior of politicians, relationships with special interests, and their explicit votes are all public record. Those most motivated will still invest more heavily into influencing the political process, but those who are affected by negative externalities have visibility into what's creating them, and if they should become motivated to act, e.g. if the effects of those externalities hit a tipping point, they have the knowledge and means to do so.

The perfect world that you're envisioning depends on politicians being presumptively trustworthy, well-intentioned, and having perfect knowledge of what their constituents' interests actually are. None of that is possible, and shielding politicians from direct accountability will only serve to make them more beholden to the small set of interests best suited to navigating their way into the system.

[–] jonahhorowitz 2 days ago
I've always wanted this. It's such an obvious idea when you're a software engineer.
[–] p-e-w 2 days ago
We don’t need version control for legislative bills. We need journalists that track down who tried to insert what, summarize it, and present it to the public with context. That would satisfy the oversight purpose without getting lost in technicalities.

Our problem is that the press isn’t doing their job, not that legislation doesn’t have a commit graph. The latter, even if it existed, would not fix the former.

[–] hvb2 1 day ago
> Our problem is that the press isn’t doing their job

The general public isn't willing to pay for this, so it's very hard to do this. Especially given that most of this isn't exactly going to generate tons of views.

Let's be honest, in general, the public is very upset about all the injustice they perceive. But the public also lost all interest in the process, some can't even be bothered to vote once every other year....

It's too easy to blame others for your own inaction

[–] dotancohen 1 day ago

  > But the public also lost all interest in the process, some can't even be bothered to vote once every other year....
In the 1920s the German speaking world got a book whose first three chapters just hammer in how important it is for the average citizen to take an interest in his local politics. That book was subsequently banned by almost every European country in the decades since. I'm the only person I know who has personally read it, even though it is one of the most derided books in history.

I highly recommend the first three chapters to anybody who thinks they don't need to understand their local politics.

[–] 1718627440 1 day ago
What book are you referring to?
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
To be fair, it was a major theme of Aristotle’s, too.
[–] neutronicus 1 day ago
Are you referring to Mein Kampf?
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
> general public isn't willing to pay for this

The rough truth is you don’t need the general public to. Just the elites, broadly defined.

[–] hvb2 23 hours ago
Because the general public does not, journalism and checking politicians isn't something you can do while breaking even. The result of that is that you need to have someone with a lot of money to back your losses.

And here we are.

[–] bahmboo 2 days ago
I am confused. Someone put in place a system that would allow journalists or citizens to meaningfully engage with the law in a much better way than they can now.

However you are proposing that journalists as a homogenous group do some extra work. I think that's a great thing but I don't get why you say the press aren't doing their job when they are at an historical low of compensation and respect.

If sounds like you are outsourcing your rage at the legislature and the press and journalists are the problem?

Sticking to the FTA someone made a first step in version tracking legislative texts but you do not think they've done enough?

[–] aspect0545 2 days ago
Why not both. I'm sure that more visibility would result in more requests for press inquiries.
[–] msdz 2 days ago
Exactly, it’d make the press’ work easier, and maybe enable more people or entities to look into this topic over all, too.
[–] teiferer 2 days ago
A revision control system is a tool the journalists could use to achieve this. Commits to the 'enacted' branch could have commit messges documenting the context (when, how, why, who). Unmerged branches could represent proposed but ultimately rejected (or still in progress) changes with the same amount of meta data.

Of course a tool itself doesn't solve the problem. You need somebody to use the tool. But the tool makes it easier to solve the problem.

[–] safety1st 2 days ago
We need that too, but the ability to git diff changes to the law is a great win for democracy and transparency in 2026 because git is an interface that agents are experts at using. If you're a journalist, activist or anybody else doing the type of research you just described this makes it faster and easier.

In the present day, mainstream journalists won't be meaningful advocates for democracy and the public interest any time soon. It's time to acknowledge that this idea is wishful thinking. The root cause is changes to the law like the Telecom Act of 1996 which allowed for the consolidation of old media under a few corporations.

For many years these mainstream journalists have been required to support corruption, cronyism, the centralization of power, and the increase of corporate power in order to retain their jobs. The law needs to be changed before they can become a net benefit to society again.

[–] crabmusket 1 day ago
> because git is an interface that agents are experts at using

I'd actually argue that this is the wrong way around. Being able to git diff legislation is very good, but mainly for humans, who need tools to make work tractable.

An agent will use whatever interface is available, including no interference, won't give up due to the task being too onerous, and can be scaled by paying for more tokens. It could simply brute force diff the raw text, writing bespoke Python and regexes, etc.

LLMs make brute forcing intellect possible. It's humans who need finely crafted tools.

[–] zoobab 1 day ago
I am sure with LLMs the time to craft those tools to fetch the data and put them back in a git repo (for example one repo per legislative project) would not be too hard to do.
[–] Gormo 1 day ago
I don't think that the problem with legislative transparency is that there aren't enough middlemen sitting between the public and the legislative process.

I'm personally not interested in being dependent on the press -- which is just other people pursuing their own interests and assumptions -- to interpret artificially opaque sources, if those sources can just be made accessible instead.

Having a dynamic and pluralistic press is a good thing, and we need more investigative journalism, to discover what isn't visible to the public, but I'm not sure there's a lot of value in the sort of interpretive journalism you're proposing.

[–] mschuster91 2 days ago
> Our problem is that the press isn’t doing their job

The problem is, barely anyone is willing to pay the press for doing this job.

Outrage farming and clickbait make money, honest reporting does not.

[–] faangguyindia 2 days ago
Until journalists can be paid under the table to mislead the public, the problem will persist. Almost anyone can be bought on a Friday night for the price of a few drinks and benefits.
[–] callmeal 2 days ago
>Our problem is that the press isn’t doing their job ...

Well, it's practically impossible to get a person to do something when their paycheck depends on their not doing it.

[–] sixdimensional 2 days ago
Same. What I would like to see is Git for non-technical users, built as a public platform that is open source, hosting this.

I do think there are some Markdown-based open source projects that might fit the bill.

[–] p-e-w 2 days ago
There are a million frontends designed to simplify Git for non-programmers. In fact, lots of office software now has version management built-in. Very few people use it. This isn’t a technology problem.
[–] hnlmorg 1 day ago
To be fair, version control built into office suits are often hidden away or have other UX patterns that aren’t comfortable for nontechnical folk. So they either still get scared by it, or don’t even know it exists.

Yet there is a demand for version control for nontechnical people. And I know this because I’ve seen enough files called “copy of important thing” or “important thing 2”.

[–] sixdimensional 1 day ago
Yes, thank you, I agree exactly with your comment. Track changes doesn't seem to have the right user experience for non-technical users.
[–] p-e-w 1 day ago
> Yet there is a demand for version control for nontechnical people. And I know this because I’ve seen enough files called “copy of important thing” or “important thing 2”.

This demonstrates LACK OF demand for technical version control, since the system you describe has been used since forever and found to be good enough.

[–] hnlmorg 1 day ago
No. It demonstrates nontechnical people adapting the skills they’re familiar with to suit a requirement they have.

It doesn’t prove that they don’t want a better solution should it have the right UX. And, as I said in my original comment, the current UX for version control in documents both sucks and is often hidden away where people might not even be aware it exists.

[–] phoghed 1 day ago
Track changes in office is used heavily. Version history in Google Docs also
[–] talon8635 1 day ago
They’d use some hyper-expensively-licensed Google/Microsoft doc web product far before even considering git
[–] unsnap_biceps 2 days ago
Wouldn't a wiki basically be exactly that?
[–] sixdimensional 1 day ago
Yes, it is, but the issue is ease of use for non-technical users.

I was trying to avoid naming any products on purpose, but, for example, there is a commercial product that is easy enough for most people and affordable that would work for this- and there are a few open source clones that come close.

The open source clones are not quite polished enough for non-technical users, but they are the closest thing I can think of, basically crossing over a wiki + Markdown for knowledgebase creation with Git-like versioning.

[–] refurb 2 days ago
The system would be gamed by the politicians.

Insert language you know will never get enough votes

Don’t strike out but add language to make it useless

Plus the bill sponsor often makes changes others ask for, so the true author isn’t noted

It would be a mess and ignored by the public after a while

[–] somenameforme 1 day ago
This is already regularly done. One side or the other will propose or amend a bill that they claim does [popular thing x] and then add in some clause that they know will get voted against, so they can then claim that [other side] voted against [popular thing x].

This is often especially cynical because [popular thing x] is often something that neither party wants to pass. So a very recent example of this was an act against insider trading by politicians, that was bundled with a voter id law. Neither side wants to clamp down on insider trading from politicians, so the entire act was DOA. It was nothing but bread and circuses.

[–] lopis 2 days ago
Git does allow multiple contributors on each commit. Of course people can lie, but it's a matter of policy in the end. Make it a crime to not add all contributors to a diff.
[–] sharpshadow 1 day ago
The politicians wouldn’t have the option to game it if additional data is pulled in automatically like lobbying disclosure filings, public watchdog databases, etc. for the final overview. A swift turn from limiting the total sugar amount in soda would look quite bad if the politician got lobbied by Big Soda.
[–] 3form 2 days ago
Every system gets gamed, and so is the current one. The goal is that the people can more easily stay informed. Even with mixed authors problem you highlight would be still an improvement.
[–] DavidSchor 1 day ago
But there would be a papertrail that can be revisited. And journalists can access to keep people informed of systemic or major issues.
[–] xmprt 1 day ago
There already is a papertrail. It's just that it's extremely convoluted to navigate. This isn't a technology problem.
[–] matwood 1 day ago
Convoluted to navigate sounds like a problem that could be solved with technology…
[–] xmprt 1 day ago
Could be? Yes. But I don't know if it's super clear that any existing technology would solve the problem without also introducing new process changes. For example, I can imagine a world where the laws are just a bunch of text files and instead of using git to make changes, we just add a new text file and there's a preamble that says that the law is superseded by any future laws. Laws also aren't as clear cut as code. We have tons of contradictory laws on the books today.

What I'm getting at is that, if we need to make process changes anyway in order to actually make the technology work for us, then the real solution is in the process and not in the technology.

[–] blitzar 1 day ago
Or just name the pile of slop "The Patriot Act" - then you can legally hang anyone treasonous enough to votes against whatever may be inside.
[–] JumpCrisscross 2 days ago
> it would shame legislators from inserting language against the public interest and only meant to reward political contributors

You’d just got a system of favors for who inserts what language. You’d hand tough edits to your safe-seat colleagues and insert messaging amendments designed to get voted down for own comms.

When a measure becomes a target yada yada.

(Note: this proposal is for the U.S. code. Not bills. Git for the USC works.)

[–] franktankbank 1 day ago
Huh, never thought of git as a "measure". Still don't.
[–] JumpCrisscross 1 day ago
> never thought of git as a "measure"

Git is a tool, or more accurately in this case, an interface. The measure is the attribution of edits.

[–] franktankbank 1 day ago
> attribution of edits.

I'm still not clear how that defines a specific metric.

[–] imnotsuraboutth 1 day ago
Bills are written in English but I'd view them as code. It's not interesting to track changes in code for outsiders. Sure, it's cool for programmers, but users of software do not care if you unrolled a for-loop and who did it. They don't even know what that is and the same holds for bills. We have journalists for that and nobody is willing to pay for that because nobody gives a shit about a functioning democracy. Now that's one hell of a problem git ain't going to solve.
[–] DanielHB 1 day ago
The great promise of crypto-contracts was to be able to write rules as code and have them be deterministic (instead of requiring a judge to rule on it) and even have unit tests. Instead it seems we are moving towards a world where rules are written in English and judged by biased LLMs.

I couldn't care less about crypto currencies, but crypto contracts had the potential to replace much (although not all) of the bureaucracy around governments and justice systems. I am very sad it didn't take off.

[–] zoobab 1 day ago
"crypto contracts had the potential to replace much (although not all) of the bureaucracy around governments and justice systems"

It's a matter of time.

[–] kelseyfrog 2 days ago
Such a requirement would not do what you think it would. There would not be names legislator or even aids as commit authors. The commit authors would be members of the House Office of the Legislative Counsel[1].

The House Office of the Legislative Counsel is non-partisan, impartial, and confidential. Whether transparency has merit or not, tracking provenance would make the office partisan. Is more partisanship in government not a concern?

The second issue with transparency is that communication between legislators and legislative counsel member is subject to the attorney-client relationship. Breaking attorney-client privilege is a serious decision. Knowing how such a change would affect the organization and its members is not something to be taken lightly.

A more convincing argument for transparency would address impartiality and confidentiality. This is pretty clearly a Chesterton's fence type situation where advocating to change a system should anticipate criticisms. Addressing opposition preemptively is an implicit demonstration of knowing why the system exists which is table stakes for changing it.

1. https://legcounsel.house.gov/

[–] kfogel 1 day ago
Thank you for this informative comment, and I agree with the general idea in your Chesterton's Fence point.

When the HOLC provides wording, they do so in response to a request from an elected member or that member's staff, right? What I'm getting at is that it doesn't matter whether provenance is found via the commit author or via some other change-associated metadata -- the key thing is making precise change provenance trackable and (perhaps after some predefined delay) public. This would mainly aid journalists.

Is the HOLC currently functioning as an anonymizing service for changes to in-progress legislation? And if so, is that by design, or more by gradual and organic evolution?

Fundamentally, if we can't get at that provenance information in a reliable way right now at all, then version-control-style tracking would be a pretty big qualitative change in how things are done: information that wasn't available, except through unofficial channels, would now be available (again, maybe with some time delay or whatever, but in the long run it would be available). On the other hand, if that information is currently obtainable but is just not easy to obtain, then this would be more of an incremental improvement: since journalists and others with the requisite know-how could get the information right now, but maybe have to jump through hoops to do so, this would just reduce the number or height of the hoops.

I don't know which of those two scenarios best describes reality, but maybe you do?

[–] JoshTriplett 1 day ago
> Whether transparency has merit or not, tracking provenance would make the office partisan.

Tracking who added what language is in no way partisan.

[–] pbhjpbhj 1 day ago
Agreed, that is just a factual error. One has to wonder about the motivation of that statement.

It's like the people that complain their favoured politician has more scrutiny on them when actually that politician just commits lots of crimes.

[–] kelseyfrog 1 day ago
You don't have to wonder. You can just ask. Why leave motivations to speculation when a conversation is possible?
[–] kelseyfrog 1 day ago
1. The public will view it that way.

2. It will create an incentive structure that will reflect the goals of political parties.

Transparency brings the office into the political sphere. Nothing in the political sphere escapes partisanship. It's pretty clear that no one knew this office existed before I brought it up and folks thought that lawmakers drafted their own bills. The fact that we're even now talking about it in terms of politics is evidence that it will devolve into partisan politics.

I get your instinct - transparency is in general a net good. But the more public an office is, the more it is drawn into partisanship.

Politics is especially prone to engineers disease and this is a great example of it. It assumes a technical solution in the spirit of transparency applies to complex human, social, and political domains where those frameworks do not neatly fit. When someone points out engineers disease, have some introspection before questioning their motives.

[–] franktankbank 1 day ago
Sponsor of change should obviously be shown as at least partial author of the commit. Tag of "new book of laws" should show as authors all who voted yes.
[–] kelseyfrog 1 day ago
That's entirely fair
[–] zoobab 2 days ago
The authors are lobbyists of big corporations nowadays.
[–] zoobab 1 day ago
This is why I believe we should do something else than elections of politicians.
[–] pbhjpbhj 1 day ago
Go on?
[–] zoobab 1 day ago
There are several alternatives, like for example a political party where 1000 random citizens are picked up for analyzing and voting on every file. Next file next 1000 batch of random citizens are picked.

We could also let people vote directly on their own laws without intermediaries.

[–] Gormo 1 day ago
Sounds like a sort of jury system added to the legislative process. That might actually be a workable idea as an additional safeguard/sanity check before bills can pass.
[–] citizenpaul 2 days ago
99% of the legislation changes are made by 20 something interns, on behalf of someone.
[–] Henchman21 2 days ago
Indeed, both the name of the intern and the attribution on behalf-of should be required in the signed commit.
[–] antihipocrat 1 day ago
..and the name of the lobby group that prepared it for the intern.
[–] zoobab 1 day ago
That was the same for the software patent directive, we had leaks of amendments proposed by big companies, we could see that Members of Parliament were just copy pasting them.
[–] Henchman21 1 day ago
Agreed.
[–] mdup 1 day ago
Shameless plug: I built this for French law

https://juriblio.fr/pourquoi-juriblio

It shows git-like diffs plus an AI summary of what changed. There is no author attribution though - I'm not sure there is a business use case for it, lawyers don't care about who wrote a specific law.

[–] duxup 1 day ago
Do legislators make the changes piece by piece like code themselves or their staff do it?

I always assumed they negotiated and then some group who made the deals wrote it all up.

[–] codethief 1 day ago
I doubt this would work.

Git commits get rebased, squashed, cherry-picked and edited retroactively, written during pair or mob programming sessions or rewritten during code review. And we also know that commit messages often suck. As a result, commits almost never tell you the full story about who exactly contributed, in what order or why.

The process is even messier when writing new bills. They get passed around between different departments, discussed & edited in various committees, etc.

Sure, you could force all participating parties to use git, prevent them from force-pushing or rewriting history even on their "feature branches", get them to sign their every commit, etc. But what you'd then likely just end up with is most negotiation & editing happening out-of-band.

Besides: At the end of the day it's the (majority of the) parliament that enacts a given law, so in my book they are all responsible, even if in practice laws get written by a small subset of people.

[–] franktankbank 1 day ago
I'm blown away by the hand wringing of this. Someone would be forced to answer for the way they voted and inserted language. It makes it harder to do what you complain about because someone is going to take a hit. If its a little guy he might lose the next election. If its a big guy, eventually these things add up. Not sure what unintended consequences might appear. It sounds like you are resigned to the worst fate right now.
[–] deepsun 1 day ago
And also unit tests for edge cases and loopholes in laws.
[–] paganel 1 day ago
> the public would know

By this point "the public" just doesn't care for this sort of stuff, we just want (stabler, for those still employed) jobs and day-to-day life that is not expensive as hell anymore. What the middle-class elites now call "democracy" has just become a glasperlenspiel, i.e. nothing of real interest to us, the masses, just a social differentiator between said well-to-do middle-classes.

More generally, the sooner us, the masses, spell it out that democracy is well and truly dead the better, that way maybe we can do something to alleviate our situation, but I'm afraid that won't happen anytime soon.