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points by 0xy 1 day ago | 0 comments
I'll be straight up. I have been responsible for performance conversations and hiring decisions, and I use both of these as a tool to ensure that engineers on my team are using AI.

The window for the gunslinging no-AI coder sitting in the basement with Mountain Dew and cranking out thousands of lines a day is essentially closed now.

My previous superstar 10x engineers are now superstar 50x engineers thanks to AI-enhanced output. All metrics are up. There's also no negative effects either, in fact incidents and faults have declined.

This position is the equivalent of the delivery driver in the early 1900s who refused to get an automobile and instead insisted his horse and cart is better.

Know that if you oppose a productivity tool that transforms every other engineer, you will be managed out. I've seen it happen more than once already.

[–] dantillberg 1 day ago
If your measure of a 10x engineer was in (thousands of) cranked-LOCs/day, then for sure, AI has taken their "performance" to the moon.

The rest is basic hard truth, but I really hope that the "quantity of output" rationale withers. AI's core value for programming is in input tokens, not output tokens.

[–] somenameforme 1 day ago
I don't think this line of reasoning is very reasonable anymore. LLMs are getting good not only at producing high quality output but even preemptively dealing with architecture and other 'big picture' type designs. And this has been true for quite some time, certainly at least since the Fable gen of LLMs.

And while I do expect progress to eventually slow, there's no reason to yet think we're at the plateau point or necessarily even especially close, so they're probably only going to get better. But at this point, even if they didn't I'd still be saying this. 'Programming' with an LLM is a loathsome and unpleasant task, but that's because it's no longer programming but instead an entirely different design-centric domain where it's handy to have some programming knowledge to nudge it in the right direction sometimes.

I think human programmers are going to go the way of human computers. [1] And I'm obligated to link to that because now most people probably no longer even know such an occupation existed, even though it rather obviously must have if you think about the past for a moment.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_(occupation)

[–] dantillberg 1 day ago
That wasn't my line of reasoning. Yes, AI is useful for programming. It just shouldn't be judged by volume of code output.
[–] 0xy 1 day ago
The quantity over quality argument has substantially broken down in the last 6 months especially. SOTA models outperform the vast majority of engineers at engineering tasks, let alone everything else they're also exceptional at, including system design, incident recovery, DevOps, etc.

This is because these models act as a productivity enhancer for engineers. A 1x engineer becomes 5x. A 10x becomes 50x. And so on.

Slop is a risk that can be mitigated through team policy, skills and other mechanisms. Nothing we produce is slop, in fact incidents are down dramatically. It's more stable than ever.

Nobody is measuring LOCs. They're up, but that's barely relevant to me. I'd rather measure defect rate, rollback rate, sprint velocity, roadmap adherence etc. Those measure actual progress.

I don't use LOCs as a reason to manage people out. But if they're vehemently refusing to even try AI, other metrics will make it obvious that they're falling behind.

[–] rossy 1 day ago
> I use both of these as a tool to ensure that engineers on my team are using AI.

So you could definitely be the first to explain to me why AI is the only "tool" that gets forced on developers from the top down with threats like this.

In my experience, developers have to beg management to get productivity enhancing tools like linters, version control systems, editors and IDEs approved for use. AI is the rare reversal where the decision to use it is often made by non-technical C-suite members and pushed downwards, often with the implicit or explicit threat of job loss, like you are making now. But if the productivity gains are so obvious it turns 10x engineers into 50x, why is that necessary, and why do you need to look at anything other than the quantity of a developer's output to know if they're using it?

[–] argee 1 day ago
They're just going to rationalize answers to this. You already know the real answer. FOMO, and fear of the Red Queen effect.
[–] pebble 1 day ago
There are no negative effects, yet.
[–] paxy 1 day ago
Been hearing that for 3+ years now. All the people going "once everything goes to shit they're going to hire me to clean up the AI mess" are still waiting. Meanwhile models get better with every new release.
[–] pebble 1 day ago
It's not only about maintenance, I'm waiting to see for example what kind of long term mental effects this will have.
[–] mono442 1 day ago
Three years ago the ai struggled to write a single function correctly.
[–] knottn 1 day ago
It’s always been like this in reality. Managers matter, engineers do not.
[–] iExploder 1 day ago
> All metrics are up.

Kindly enumerate the metrics.

"All metrics is up" is a message The Communist Party approves wholeheartedly. 5 year plan delivered in 1 year, give this comrade a medal! anyone?

[–] 0xy 1 day ago
Sure. Number of rollbacks, number of incidents, Jira velocity, adherence to roadmaps, tickets completed, PRs merged, PR review time.
[–] iExploder 1 day ago
Thanks, number of incidents and rollbacks is interesting, whats the field, how many customers?

PRs merged and reviewed is a bit of a joke :)

[–] Kuyawa 1 day ago
Oh don't you dare to say the truth or you will be downvoted into oblivion by those who seek comfort dodging reality
[–] curiousaboutml 1 day ago
You've put words in my mouth. In no part of my post have I claimed that we all need to be no-AI coders, or even that I am one.

This is clearly about distributing the fruits of productivity evenly, whether they come from AI or any other way.

If you work for a salary and aren't a billionaire, I hope you will introspect why you assumed that your fellow working class human being was against productivity - we are on the same team my friend. If you aren't, well, I got nothing to say to you.