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points by zhivota 1 day ago | 0 comments
Seems like it was fly.io, since they got the user IP from there and it would make sense they would have the session logs.
[–] ashleyn 1 day ago
Tech companies used to demand warrants/subpoenas for these kinds of things. Now it seems they just gladly hand it over with a wide smile on their face. Am I the only one to notice this shift?
[–] newhotelowner 1 day ago
Indian government is banning 1000s of posts and accounts everyday on Insta/FB/Reddit/X in India. They used to notify the user and let them know that this is a government requested tack down. Now, they just say, their automated system flagged the content.
[–] dijit 1 day ago
> Tech companies used to demand warrants/subpoenas for these kinds of things.

Two things are true

1) Tech has become more financial people and "techbros" than principled nerds.

2) The powers of the USG have become a lot stronger and far reaching- quite literally to the level where talking about complying with an order is itself a crime.

[–] davidw 1 day ago
I want to reunite with my 'principled nerds' so badly. Things weren't perfect, not by a long shot, back then, but there was a sense of hope and excitement about using technology to make the world a better place.
[–] thepryz 1 day ago
Agreed. One of the reasons I'm seeing myself becoming more of a luddite looking forward to retiring offline with minimal technology is precisley because online discourse is largely comprised of unserious people confidently incorrect and technology companies have largely stopped trying to make peoples' lives better and are more focused on quarterly earnings.
[–] dbspin 1 day ago
Hackerspaces still exist - and seem to be booming again since the tech layoffs. Dropped by Noisebridge while I was visiting SF and as the kids say, the vibes were immaculate.
[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
Do you participate in a hackerspace though, or do you just visit? I've realised I've become far too passive as a result of consuming mass internet media.
[–] johnisgood 1 day ago
You and I both. :/
[–] DANmode 1 day ago
Both of these are serious, but decades-old problems.
[–] piltdownman 1 day ago
They used to operate in a legally consistent Western Democracy. They no longer do. OpSec for most involved in basic social activism needs to now be at the level of 'Journalist in a Dictatorship' or stricter.

At this point there's a non-zero chance you and your employees are detained on spurious national security grounds, or simply end up in an ICE internment centre - accidently or otherwise.

[–] BHSPitMonkey 1 day ago
That was before doing so would almost certainly result in immediate retaliation from the executive branch.
[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
Are you talking about the individuals or the companies? Companies can lie a lot of the time and just say they don't have the requested information, and the government has no way to know, unless they usually comply with similar requests. The government can seize servers, but can't compel disk encryption keys yet.
[–] phendrenad2 1 day ago
Your mistake is assuming that the company is anti-ICE.
[–] bmitc 1 day ago
People care more about money than morals and ethics and just being a decent human being and citizen.
[–] lioeters 1 day ago
"Authoritarian capitalism is a system in which corporations ally themselves with repressive or anti-democratic political regimes, benefiting from protection and impunity."
[–] cestith 1 day ago
There's a shorter phrase for corporations and other large organizations colluding with or controlling an authoritarian government for the organizations' own ends at the expense of at least some subset of the people. It's actually only one word, and there are three options. Mussolini had corporatism on the mind. You probably know the other two, and one is a proper noun.
[–] zeusk 1 day ago
You should call the nazis out imho
[–] cestith 1 day ago
Fair enough. The two other words are fascism and Nazism.
[–] api 1 day ago
Cloud equals not your computer, folks. Any cloud company can be legally subpoenaed and required to hand over any data they have, and they can also be legally gagged from telling anyone about it. Doesn't matter if they support it or not, they are a corporation subject to the laws of their jurisdiction and disobeying can expose the directors personally to civil or criminal penalties. Every corp will comply with a legal subpoena, and those are often easier to get than warrants.

For you they at least require a warrant. Usually. Unless you're crossing the border or are undocumented or something.

[–] dcss_gardener 1 day ago
Well, and what are you concretely suggesting here? Having my own door kicked down and my dog shot so they can get at my personal home server? Buying hardware and colocating it then getting permanently blacklisted from every datacenter when they get raided?

The problem here is the cops not where the computer sits.

[–] omgwtfbyobbq 1 day ago
Your own property/server has 4th amendment protections, especially if it's in your house. Your use of someone else's machine doesn't, especially when they voluntarily give up your info.

You can also use proxys and/or tor to create external accounts/upload stuff.

[–] loloquwowndueo 1 day ago
> your own property/server has 4th amendment protections, especially if it's in your house.

Yeah that’s gonna be super helpful, try to keep chanting “fourth amendment!” while pinned to the ground and the heavily armed swat team that just blew your door away is searching through the house.

I do watch too many movies.

[–] omgwtfbyobbq 1 day ago
If they have a warrant, they can search for stuff in that warrant.

If they don't, they can still do that, but anything they find will likely not be usable in court and you'll have a straightforward civil rights case.

[–] loloquwowndueo 1 day ago
Again : “HEY MY DUDES WHERES YOUR WARRANT AND YOU CAN ONLY SEARCH FOR STUFF IN IT” going to be hard to yell when you have a trooper’s boot smashing your neck against the ground and they’re ransacking your home after having blown the door off its hinges.
[–] omgwtfbyobbq 1 day ago
I agree. And you don't have to yell it.

And... Them stomping on you during an illegal search doesn't make it a legal one and doesn't shield them from liability.

Even in a legal search, I'm guessing they can't decide to curb stomp you just because without the risk of legal/other liability.

[–] lopsotronic 1 day ago
Fifteen years ago, yes, maybe your movie ingestion would have given you unrealistic expectations.

However, today, every segment in the pipeline of judice -- LEO to PA/DA[1] to judiciary to BoPs -- is utterly subverted ideologically. What happens in this pipeline -- especially regarding a 4A case -- will have little to do with justice, but rather who you are, who is trying you, and what court they manage to pick. And of course the hands and eyes of the whole system is the Executive Branch, now in lockstep[2] at the Federal Level.

Reactionaries will insist to their dying day that the opposing ideology did this first, so today they have the right to do it back harder.

What this means is that it doesn't matter what your rights are, or who has what paper. Because who's taking your case? Where will it go? How long will it take?

In one sense, the reactionaries are right: an opposing ideology HAS been doing this, for a long time. But it's not hollywood or the academy or the commmunists or the legions of wokedom. It's your boss, and your boss' boss. Using their cushion of money to avoid any kind of criminal and civil responsibilities by simply waiting out everyone else in court. They're the ones who broke the ground here, and the post-GWoT security state drove a bus through it, as if Keanu Reeves was at the wheel.

Anyway at this late hour in our accursed year of 2026 . . none of it matters. Doesn't matter who started it, doesn't matter what side you happen to like or not like. Same result: the laws on paper will not protect you. Don't make the possibly fatal mistake of thinking they will. Think like a guerilla, think like Snowden.

[1] But not quite with every SAO, a hairline fracture in the cathedral of oppression we've voted to have built all around us.

[2] Or at least as much "lockstep" as can be bought with the current executive's level of competence. The Dominionists and the Dark Enlightenment sorts are the beating heart of intelligence in the reactionary wing today, and they are still mostly staying in the background, waiting for the collapse.

[–] OkayPhysicist 1 day ago
If you want to ignore legality, then you need to keep a rifle for every man, woman, and child in your home strong enough to shoulder one, and enough black-tips to ensure the cops bring a chaplain along for the raid.
[–] loloquwowndueo 1 day ago
I have no idea what you just wrote. What?
[–] newdee 20 hours ago
Second amendment power fantasy.
[–] temp_praneshp 1 day ago
> Your own property/server has 4th amendment protections

no such thing called constitutional protections in 2026 USA.

[–] omgwtfbyobbq 1 day ago
There are, although you still have to find a lawyer to litigate them. Maybe less so than in other years, but in other cases, maybe more so.
[–] xoa 1 day ago
>Well, and what are you concretely suggesting here?

Having your own server and infra, at least in part.

>Having my own door kicked down and my dog shot so they can get at my personal home server?

The government doesn't have infinite resources, nor is it immune to political considerations (obviously, that's the problem here!). There is an enormous, qualitative and quantitative difference between:

  1) we must get an actual warrant in a lot of different physical jurisdictions across the country all with different judges and then spend the money and availability to send physical meat agents to said locations, often rural and remote, across the country to an unknown physical situation with at least some areas where people might shoot at us, and all equipment needed for that, and will by definition have to disclose everything to our targets
vs

  2) an agent can comfortably from their central office chair use a preexisting automated system to a central cloud portal to demand info secretly from companies that will just comply without any question
Scale is inherent in the topic here. It's not just "why", "HOW" is "ICE running one of the largest anti-left surveillance ops"? Well, in part because they can do so so cheaply, efficiently, and stealthily via purely electronic means. They aren't kicking down ten million doors and shooting ten million dogs, and indeed they CAN'T do that, not because they wouldn't like to but because it's physically impossible with their resources and would provoke furious (undoubtedly including some lethal) pushback.

And again, even if absolutely nothing else, it means something to know they're after you. Nothing stops you from immediately surrendering your server when asked, but you can then also instantly get a lawyer/support and push back right then and there. You can't adapt to what you either never even realize happened or only realized too late.

[–] dcss_gardener 1 day ago
Yeah these are pretty good points I can't really dispute.

I think it is a threat model thing primarily, which I should have been more clear about. I'm more worried about being lawfully murdered in front of my family than I am going to jail because my ssh sessions were read. But the ssh thing is a totally valid concern for someone doing different activities than I am and I shouldn't have dismissed it.

[–] xoa 1 day ago
Thanks for the reply, and I'm definitely all in favor of assessing things in light of threat model! That said:

>I'm more worried about being lawfully murdered in front of my family than I am going to jail because my ssh sessions were read

I guess I'd ask if you're really sure about that as a threat model? The fact is that such things are really really rare, particularly for anything white collar-ish. They get press precisely because they're unicorns. The "lawful" bit as well, one of the whole things here is that it's, at best, very dubiously lawful at all; they've been able to skirt that question so far via keeping it all secret and trying to hide from individual suit. Can't do that if a warrant from a local magistrate judge is needed and a private residence is raided though.

In contrast "you can beat the rap but not the ride" seems less dramatic but a lot more common, and in particular more than actual jail all the little ways the government has tried to fuck with people (like putting them on travel lists) that are opaque and much more difficult to even prove are the result of an organized scheme. I'm personally more worried in the near future about "chilling effects at a scale", not hundreds of activists in gulags but millions of people who get pressure in terms of financials or tax investigations or pressure on employers or always getting pulled in the security lines and on and on, and then some sizable fraction change their behavior as a result. It feels more concretely productive and practical to focus on making sure the government would have trouble both scaling and hiding unconstitutional behavior.

[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
If that is your worry, people who do a lot more dangerous things than web hosting have written and talked about how to act during a raid so that you don't get murdered. Mainly just let them do what they want, don't immediately push back with violence against infringements of your rights, push back in court later.
[–] soperj 1 day ago
> provoke furious (undoubtedly including some lethal) pushback

Where's the furious pushback for the people they've murdered already?

[–] trvz 1 day ago
Fix your country.
[–] jimbokun 1 day ago
Oh, gee, none of us thought of that. Thanks.
[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
This happens sometimes, but rarely, and if it does happen, chances are you'll be fine, apart from downtime and having to buy a new server, as long as your disks are encrypted.

You're treating this as if the worst thing that can happen will happen, when it's more of a numbers game. They do these raids occasionally on one or two people in order to scare tens of thousands of other people away from participating.

DCs also get bullshit raids sometimes and have processes that don't involve an immediate permanent blacklist.

You have to realise it's a move of desperation by the attackers. If they are seizing a server, it means they don't have anything and they're hoping beyond hope they can get something, anything, from that server.

[–] zug_zug 1 day ago
probably use tor and nothing tied to your identity
[–] actionfromafar 1 day ago
Even safer to say nothing, wear your MAGA cap and watch Fox.
[–] veidr 1 day ago
I'm not saying it's easy, but the straightforward solution is to move
[–] fcarraldo 1 day ago
For those with the resources to do so, perhaps. But those well-resourced people fleeing the country are then leaving those who are not well-resourced to fend for themselves, and letting it further devolve.

The US is currently, probably, still a Democracy with a semi-functioning independent Judiciary and public pressure can still have an impact.

[–] Toynbeeidea 1 day ago
Unlike the USA (yes, even now), most countries are not eager to accept foreigners.
[–] actionfromafar 1 day ago
To a country without brownshirts you mean?
[–] veidr 1 day ago
Yes, exactly.

Although it may still be possible that some jurisdictions will emerge, even within the US, that have the capacity to preserve basic civil liberties for their residents, whether via tacit agreement or overt paramilitary enforcement.

I wouldn't bet my kids' childhoods on that happening, though.

[–] jimz 1 day ago
It's not an option for everyone, and just being American will result in difficulties in getting bank accounts and access financial rails overseas thanks to FACTA. Countries that do not have a history of compliance/cooperation are generally countries you don't want to go to and also, likely can't actually stay in. For the past 100 years or so there's no terra nullis one can simply escape to and be allowed to live with any degree of comfort and acceptance. Realistically though, even the places that offered the illusion of safety are not really safe now. Not to mention that the fact that any part of the pipes is even visible is in a meta sense part of the safeguards actually working. If you go to Hong Kong, Singapore, Dubai, etc., they've simply had time to learn how to run authoritarianism as normal. The reaction to such a scheme indicates that in the US this is still aberrant. Elsewhere this is quotidian and assumed to exist even when it doesn't really because of the inability for any individual person not in a privileged position to even begin to understand what state capacity actually exists, or doesn't exist.

There is at least still the ability to recognize tyranny when it arrives that exists in the culture here. People have the option of playing jurisdictional arbitrage with their data. ICE isn't part of the actual judiciary and even the DOJ loses cases - routinely, now, under this admin, a mindblowing change from the gears that exercised discretion to keep its reputation under all circumstances.

The case that revealed all this abuse of authority is a relatively minor and poorly chosen set of facts that the government has a real possibility of taking to trial and lose on. What ICE is doing is authoritarian drag compared to pretty much everywhere else that has the capacity to have such agencies in the first place. ICE is genuinely incompetent because all this is new to them, because it's both unlawful and culturally unacceptable, and running a surveillance state is not reflexively easy to most people. They don't know how to prioritize, how to cover things up whether the authority exists or not, and how to even properly police themselves. They don't know how to passively let information reach them and instead everything is loud and noisy and leaves paper trails and frequently ineffectual. What's important is maintaining that reflex about how all this is fundamentally unacceptable in every sense.

[–] actionfromafar 1 day ago
It's a realistic goal, for now. There's probably still time, a year or two. If things go really bad, there may be a sudden outflux of refugees or whatever you want to call and it could get really difficult to get a job and a visa abroad.
[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
Which countries aren't dangerous like this? Norway perhaps?
[–] shadowgovt 1 day ago
History suggests this is a short-term solution, not even a medium-term solution.

A critical mass of people pushing back against fascism leave a country, and that country tends to devolve into the kind of place that starts wars with its neighbors.

This is why I always turn my head and squint at Americans fleeing to Canada, as if an America that fully embraced everything they see it doing wouldn't come right after Canada next.

[–] jquery 1 day ago
Look at Trump and even Vance “joking” about Canada being a state. They wouldn’t hesitate to take Canada by force if America ever got to the point where fleeing to Canada was forcibly prevented.
[–] soperj 1 day ago
They can't even take Iran by force.
[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
Iran is far away and has been preparing for this war for decades though.
[–] bigfatkitten 1 day ago
Or Afghanistan, or Vietnam.
[–] throooooo 1 day ago
Same goes for most ISPs, which are needed to connect to the Internet.
[–] bmitch3020 1 day ago
The important data being handed over was the IP address of the admin. If you self-host the server, that skips the first step to discover who is running the server, your own IP address is in the web site's DNS entry.
[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
On the other hand if it's on a hosted server that you have control over, they know whose server it is but they don't know what it's doing, and without a wiretap they don't even know who's connecting, and they can't see any encryption keys or content if encryption is used well.

Imagine a world where we all use Gmail, and one where we all host email on our own servers the host can't get into. In the latter world, a wiretap can identify who's sending mail to who, but not read the email, nor identify the IP address that downloaded any individual email. That's a severe handicap for them over just being able to read your mail. If you have 10 people on each server, they get even less info (but the server owner gets more).

[–] john_strinlai 1 day ago
indeed, the actual case report (https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/28831278-govuscourts...) states:

"technical and network-activity records from fly.io included:

SSH session logs (CSV format) listing multiple "New SSH session" entries for <redacted> with verified=true between approximately 2026-03-26 and 2026-04-01, timestamped in UTC.

outbound-connection records (CSV format) reflecting numerous TCP port 443 connections originating from internal fly.io addresses <redacted> to external IP addresses attributed to AMAZON-02 (Amazon Web Services) in the US and Cloudflarenet (Cloudflare)".

[–] brightball 1 day ago
Yea, I thought the whole Lavabit episode made it clear that privacy oriented solutions based in the US were going to have a hard time. Most Proton’s whole selling point is their location.
[–] omgwtfbyobbq 1 day ago
And that they'll let you register even when connected to tor.
[–] matkoniecz 1 day ago
I tried and failed to get working account.
[–] omgwtfbyobbq 1 day ago
Huh, I though they did. But maybe I was wrong or they changed that.
[–] cowlevel 1 day ago
I think they have a daily rate limit for free Tor accounts. You can make a paid account through Tor with Bitcoin, which of course you obtained by some anonymous method.
[–] dns_snek 1 day ago
However on page 8 the document states that these "session logs" don't record commands, they're just audit logs of when, where, by whom the sessions were initiated.
[–] john_strinlai 1 day ago
for some reason, the above comment wont let me edit it (despite it being a minute old). but i was going to add:

"i wonder if fly.io bothers to vet/challenge records requests or if they just hand data over".

(this one can be edited, though. very strange)

[–] dns_snek 1 day ago
All of your comments are coming up as [dead]. I vouched and upvoted your first one shortly after you posted it, I think that's probably why you couldn't edit it anymore.
[–] john_strinlai 1 day ago
huh... shadowban of some sort because they aren't appearing as [dead] on my side. not sure what rule i broke, but okay.

thanks dang/tomhow.

[–] tomhow 1 day ago
Some of your comments were killed because our software classified the text as genai. That's not allowed on HN - see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html#generated and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47340079.
[–] john_strinlai 1 day ago
none of my text is genai. ever. and i dont appreciate your insinuation that it is.

the comment that started this was quoting directly from the HSI document.

this comment was one that was killed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50273618 can you please tell me how i can write it so your bot doesn't think i am a bot?

same for this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50273525 or this one https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50274615. i'll take advice on how to rewrite the original one too (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50272749) because im at a loss for words how it was classified as genai.

edit: i just ran all of my recent comments through pangram and they came back 100% human (which i knew, of course, considering i wrote them), so i am really not clear on how you want me to write my comments. apparently using my own words isn't enough for you or your bot.

[–] tomhow 1 day ago
OK, well there seem to have been a couple of false positives and perhaps a glitch in one case, which we'll look into. Sorry about that. In the case of the quote from the HSI document, perhaps that text you copied/pasted was LLM-enhanced (the comment was classified as genai according to all the methods we use, but of course no approach is 100% accurate).

False positives are going to happen, no matter how much we try to make our systems infallible, and you're welcome to email us if any comments of yours get killed and aren't quickly vouched by other users.

I can still confirm that your comments weren't being killed via any deliberate moderator intervention.

[–] MSFT_Edging 1 day ago
fwiw I'm seeing these comments.
[–] john_strinlai 1 day ago
yeah, they were vouched for. but, for example, others were not and are still hidden (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50273618). and apparently this one, too.

the most annoying part is that i got no indication that i was suddenly shadowbanned. if someone didn't tell me, it would have probably been a day or two at least of wondering why i had no engagement on my comments.

no notification, no appeal system outside of email and pray. very cool system.

[–] c22 1 day ago
Informing the subject they are shadowbanned would kind of defeat the purpose of the shadowban. Might as well just issue a regular ban then.

It's nice that this place maintains an email endpoint that's actually staffed by humans who can intervene if needed. That's more than can be said about most places these days.

[–] pier25 1 day ago
Fly.io really needs to explain what happened here.