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The October inflection point for vibe game development(simonwillison.net)
40 points by simonw 1 day ago | 51 comments
[–] angusturner 1 day ago
To keep some perspective, I encourage people to name one single cultural artifact (picture, video, game, music, book, etc) that was improved, or made substantially possible, by AI. Ideally something that has moved you or provoked a lasting response.

Then try to think of examples where Generative AI has betrayed a lack of creativity or care from the creator, and thus left a sour or ambivalent impression.

Personally, I can't do the former and the latter is depressingly easy.

[–] simonw 1 day ago
Everything Everywhere All At Once.

A couple of years ago I predicted that an award winning movie would eventually be made that used generative AI as part of the production process.

Then I learned a VFX artist on that movie used Runway's AI-assisted rotoscoping tools (though notably not generative AI, so I guess my prediction hasn't resolved yet) for the emotional sequence with the rocks.

https://www.techbrew.com/stories/2023/03/09/this-ai-startup-...

(I'd argue that the armies of orcs in the Lord of the Rings movies are a ~25 year old example of AI usage in movie making, too.)

[–] angusturner 1 day ago
Okay, better answer than I expected to be honest. TIL.

I guess I should refine my question to be about text to media specifically.

Likewise for the orcs I guess. Maybe its just going to be a matter of degree and any test I come up with have exceptions and counter examples.

[–] simonw 1 day ago
There have been a few cases of generative AI being used in movies and TV but they've been called out pretty loudly, definitely not award winning.

The worst example I've seen was the title sequence from the Marvel show Secret Invasion in 2023, which I think was the worst show Marvel have put out (independently of the awful title sequence.)

I've got the impression that concept art for movies is heavily AI generated now. Directors like being able to spin up a visual concept from a prompt as part of the development process. The concept artists are really suffering.

[–] wredcoll 1 day ago
I mean, this is 100% "no true scotsman". It feels like we're more or less peaking with the current algorithms for making llms but people are going to figure out how to usd them more effectively and you just won't notice the gen-ai effects.

Right now you have failsons like musk bragging about his terrible "one shot" short films but people who use them with more subtly and with actual skill will just look like anything else being produced.

[–] teamonkey 1 day ago
Photoshop has had AI-assisted cutting and context-aware fill for several years now. These are things that professional artists use every day. By these standards the majority of posters, adverts and print media for the last couple of years will have used AI somewhere in their development.
[–] nickv 1 day ago
AI, as we know it today (GPT3), came out not even 4 years ago. Of course, you’re not going to see a movie or book yet (especially since it was nowhere near today when it came out). I feel like people forget this.

This reads like Clifford Stoll’s “the Internet will never really matter” article - and the internet was already 40 years old and the web server was already older than ChatGPT is today. Your post sounds a bit like this sentence: “ The truth is no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher and no computer network will change the way government works.”

Where was the TV in 4 years? Facebook? The telephone?

I don’t know if you are correct, but the bar of “cultural artifact” created from a system that just barely came to be and who’s capabilities wouldn’t even be close to this until like 3 months ago, is just a really really early thing to make a decision on already.

[–] angusturner 1 day ago
Early in what sense though? How many trillions have been invested at this point.

"The truth is no online database will replace your daily newspaper, no CD-ROM can take the place of a competent teacher and no computer network will change the way government works"

This sentence seems pretty accurate to me? Like it does undersell the scale of change, but you still can't replace a good human teacher, and people still read books and newspapers despite never ending predictions they are done for

[–] angusturner 1 day ago
The redeeming feature of AI right now is that people can discern if you've relied on it too much.

Are we speeding towards a future where most people are effectively wireheaded?

[–] tourmalinetaco 1 day ago
Inverse for me. I can absolutely point to moments where AI has moved me or provoked a lasting response, and the main times GAI has actually bothered me is fewer from recall. The worst was probably “Space Heroines”, made by the “artist” Swaantje Güntzel. Words cannot describe the disappointment I felt at seeing it.
[–] vconnor 1 day ago
Has mass industrialization of gadgets made significant cultural artifacts?

Art is fine. In fact, I dare say the masses are even more appreciative of capital A Art nowadays that everybody and their dog believe they are an artist because they asked a machine to draw a pretty picture.

We will have a lot more slop, yet humans will keep creating and appreciating Art, because this is what separates them from the beasts.

[–] david2ndaccount 1 day ago
Counter point: a buddy of mine who doesn’t know how to program has been vibe-coding a video game for the last month. He got very excited early on with what he thought was quick progress, but it’s been a month and he still doesn’t have anything approaching a game or even what he wants.
[–] simonw 1 day ago
Do you know which models he's using?

My hunch is he's not using Claude Opus 5.5.

[–] vconnor 1 day ago
This answer makes me smile, it’s so naive.

Making a fun, polished game, and not just a quick prototype to post screenshots of on social media, is not just about choosing the right LLM model and telling it ‘make a fun game’

[–] simonw 1 day ago
That's the whole point of my post: as of Claude Opus 5.5, saying "make a fun game" actually works.

I was as surprised as you are.

[–] vconnor 1 day ago
I guess fun truly is subjective.
[–] andersmurphy 1 day ago
IKEA effect?
[–] trashface 1 day ago
Still sounds like progress, in the before times it used to take _years_ to get to that point.
[–] arm32 1 day ago
Counter-point: I played the games that Mr. Willison said "didn't suck", and I can confirm that they actually kinda do suck, really bad, and I was really bored, overwhelmed, or a strange mixture of both, throughout the gameplay of them.

We need to not glaze it so much. It's cool that a rock put these demos together, but they're not "really fun". Not even close. The UI is pretty thanks to the Claude Design's injected stylesheet doing a lot of heavy lifting.

Also, it's been easy to make not "really fun" games since the late 90's with no-code game maker tools. Klik & Play anybody? GameMaker? The only difference is now, thanks to the hard work of Three.js and browser tech contributors—the graphics are better.

[–] xyzsparetimexyz 1 day ago
According to the RTS blog post, the things that Claude did when told to make the game fun were these:

Every skirmish and Daily Op now opens with a choice, gives the side that’s losing a way back, and pulls the armies into the middle of the map. There are also two new ways to play.

    Openers: pick Blitz, Industry or Air Wing before the clock starts.

    Call-down powers: Barrage, EMP, Drop Pod and the Sky Hammer orbital strike.

    Objectives and salvage: Uplink relays, supply drops and wrecks worth scrap.


    Feel: combat juice, adaptive music, unit voices and an announcer.

    Command: battle alerts, game speed, saved squads and touch placement.

    New modes: Last Stand survival waves and an 8-mission Ops campaign.

    Progression: heroes, an after-action report with awards, a career, 7 mutators and a Daily Op.
I can't say that any of these things have contributed to an RTS feeling fun to me. I mean okay music is important I guess. But it's a very on-paper way of looking at 'fun' that doesn't correspond to the je ne sais quoi lived experience of fun
[–] simonw 1 day ago
The most impactful were "gives the side that’s losing a way back, and pulls the armies into the middle of the map".

Prior to those there wasn't any reason to explore the map, it was just a game of building up an army and then storming the other side all at once.

The other details - shakes, music, announcements, etc, did all add little bits of interest to it.

[–] simonw 1 day ago
The other relevant trend from the last few weeks has been coding agent game decompilation and remixing. Here's a good piece about that: https://popcar.bearblog.dev/ai-is-mass-decompiling-games-tha...
[–] 2001zhaozhao 1 day ago
This has been really cool to see and i have a lot of game/mod ideas that are borne out of the implications of this.
[–] luhgor 9 hours ago
> how much damage can you cause with a bug in a personal vibe coded game project?

You mean, environmental damage caused by the energy usage? A lot, for such "fun" hobby projects.

[–] simonw 8 hours ago
The personal energy usage impact of LLMs remains tiny, even for projects that use millions of tokens. Skip one 20 minute drive and you should be covered for weeks, if not months.
[–] 2001zhaozhao 1 day ago
AI has been absolutely great for serious game dev as well. I am now completing dozens of tickets a week on my game engine and building features and architectures I've planned and theorized for years but never had the time to actually build them. Seeing them come to fruition one by one over the last few weeks and months has been incredibly rewarding.

For example, I've long wanted to do a specific architectural approach that allows my Minecraft server's players and standalone game players to crossplay with each other. Now it's actually happening!

I think the problem in the future will not be making games, it will be standing out because games are becoming easier and easier to make nowadays! There are still many game genres, especially multiplayer, that suffer from not having a big enough playerbase and too much fragmentation can definitely worsen the game experience there.

[–] Sphax 1 day ago
I'm not looking forward to playing vibe coded games, but yes I feel like models are good enough today to write small scoped games. I used Sol and GLM 5.3 Flash to produce a prototype of a tower defense game for myself, and it works just fine.

I _am_ looking forward however to game developers using AI to debug and optimize their games. Let's squeeze all the performance we can get from existing hardware.

[–] aktenlage 1 day ago
Well said. I wonder whether AI games from low-effort prompts will play like most AI written blog posts read, superficially great but on some level not connecting with the user.
[–] frabjoused 1 day ago
This is a game where the work was actually put in: https://thesecretsproject.com
[–] Silamoth 1 day ago
Wow, we really do live in the worst timeline. At least a lot of gamers are rallying against generative “AI” slop assets, and indie devs are largely against generative “AI” in general. But yikes, this is just unfortunate.

I don’t want the games industry to be polluted with slop that has no soul. But also, I want opportunities for people to learn or just exist in game development via smaller projects. There is some market for web games, casual games, and generally small games. These markets can be great for indie devs and beginners. But if we lose that market to the slop machine, real people will lose a lot of these opportunities.

[–] simonw 1 day ago
How about real people who want to build a game without first having to learn coding, audio design, visual design, and gameplay design?
[–] Silamoth 1 day ago
What about them? No, really, I’m not trying to be snarky, but what about them? Lots of people want to do lots of things. Plenty of them don’t want to put in the work. So what?

For the record, I was one of those people who wanted to make games. That led me to learn programming and eventually led to a career as a programmer. Lots of others with similar stories. But if you’d given a younger me an LLM, I may never would have developed those skills.

That’s one of my concerns. I have others, like effects on the job market, the general unfairness of all our data being used to train models we’re now expected to pay for, negative effects on the environment, and the way in which LLMs promote inequality and can potentially crush small businesses. How do these concerns weigh against someone who wants to make a video game but doesn’t want to learn how to make video games?

[–] simonw 1 day ago
As a technologist, I see my life's work as building technology that helps people do things that they were previously unable to do.
[–] Silamoth 1 day ago
Okay, sure - maybe. But how does that weigh against any of the other concerns? So we consume large amounts of energy, build lots of new data, emit more pollution, concentrate even more wealth and power in the hands of a few companies, and ruin the job market. Is that really worth it so some people interested in games (but not interested enough to actually learn!) can “make” games by prompting an LLM?

That’s the piece that’s missing from this and other analyses. At least in other cases it makes a little sense in automating work. But game development is a creative endeavor, and the health of our planet and the lives of real people are at stake. Can’t you at least weigh the downsides against the benefits?

This feels like Jurassic Park: “Your scientists spent so much time asking if they could, they didn’t stop to ask if they should.” LLM supporters act like LLMs are inevitable and talk about the benefits, even when they’re relatively minimal. But serious discussion of the risks and downsides is missing. And it has been missing for years now.

[–] simonw 1 day ago
If all we got out of LLMs was that non-game-developers could now build games then no, the negatives would not be worthwhile.

I'm currently of the opinion that all of the other positives outweigh the negatives. Furthermore, I think we can help push the balance to the positive by ensuring as many people can use this technology in as positive a way as possible.

[–] vuurmot 1 day ago
Hopefully you can build something that lets young people buy a house
[–] developerDan 1 day ago
People already had avenues for that: visual scripting, pre-made assets, plugins that provide pre-built systems like inventory, etc.

But just like people who try to write a book without writing skills or paint a mural without ever having picked up a brush, it’s going to be an uphill battle and will likely fail. So to that end I ask: what’s the point? Why are the AI pilled so passionate about the increase in spam and slop and harbor so much disdain for skill, expertise, and dare I say, discipline?

[–] simonw 1 day ago
I care because I like being able to make things, and I like enabling other people to make things.

I don't particularly mind if those things aren't very good. I want people to be able to build things, share them with friends, and have fun doing so.

I'm just not convinced that someone building a crap (or not so crap thanks to Opus 5.5) game hurts anyone else. Just like if you write a bad blog post I don't think it's harmful.

What's harmful is spamming other people with your unwanted crap. So don't ship bad games to Steam, don't setup reply bots on Twitter, don't spam Reddit with slop.

[–] eli_gottlieb 1 day ago
Ok but then what are you actually contributing?
[–] vconnor 1 day ago
My God, imagine having to learn stuff. Imagine having to care, having a burning passion inside, a message that you need to share with the world in any medium.

We can do away with all that. No need to strive to be a complete person, no need to grow, to challenge yourself.

All you need to do is snap your fingers. What do you mean you still feel hollow inside? You should have asked the machine to also give you a dose of Accomplishment for the task you didn’t put any effort in.

[–] vinyl7 1 day ago
Oh no the horror of having to learn a skill needed to accomplish what you want!

I wonder if I can ask AI to make me a millionaire so I don't have to put in the effort to do it myself.

[–] s1artibartfast 1 day ago
Are you saying you wouldn't take the million?

I dont need to milk a cow to enjoy cheese, or build a house to enjoy having one.

Some people enjoy and romanticize the process, and that's okay. Others aren't interested.

[–] xyzsparetimexyz 1 day ago
God you people really can't do _anything_ except prompt huh?
[–] tourmalinetaco 1 day ago
It already is polluted with soulless slop, and has been for around the last decade. Even Nintendo is nothing but a slop mill. Indie is the last bastion, and I personally am happy that more people will be able to develop games and bring interesting ideas to the forefront, not to mention modding and reverse engineered will make games even more customizable.
[–] turpentine 1 day ago
People who know less and have less experience doing things they don't understand are not likely to be associated with quality output.
[–] tourmalinetaco 1 day ago
Sure, however the average game is not associated with quality output. The average game dev is not associated with quality output. Even high budget professional games like GTA VI are slop and probably have codebases that make the devs cry because of outsourcing and rushed production.

Games are not some holy monolith LLMs are encroaching on, and your favorites are not harmed because some random guy has an idea and an LLM can patch it together, even if he puts it on Steam. Even if there will be more games on Steam now of low quality, they will be easy to filter and the good games will rise to the top as it always does.

Besides, some of the most beloved games are inefficient, low quality dumpster fires by any professional programming standard. Just look at Bethesda games, or Roblox in the youth department.

The quality ship sailed when the consoles became locked down PCs and speeds were high enough that uncompressed assets could be streamed directly to the rendering pipeline and the devs could just yell “POOR” if your PC didn’t run it. It’s been dead so long we don’t even know where the bones are anymore because we didn’t put a grave marker.

[–] jakubmazanec 1 day ago
Counterpoint: trying to use Opus 5.5 to generate game design ideas, and it still sucks so much. It is always trying to see steer me into taking definitive decisions, while I'm trying just to explore the design space and compare various ideas against each other. Muddled, incoherent text, and not following my instructions make the process infuriating, and not very useful.
[–] tourmalinetaco 1 day ago
I can’t speak to Opus, but I’ve noticed Gemini is also less enjoyable to talk to and 2.5 was really the peak there. I assume that they’re converging on business use-cases like programming, which harms the model’s ability to be creative and make unsuspecting connections.
[–] xyzsparetimexyz 1 day ago
> If you are offended by AI-generated art, AI-generated music, AI-generated writing, and AI-generated code, I have bad news for you: vibe coded games combine all of those at once.

Yeah this is a major problem. At least do one of these yourself.

> And if the game isn’t fun enough, add this:

> Make it a LOT more fun

I think theres also a certain quality that AI is missing in HOW it creates '''art''' like this. Games are often fun but they're not ABOUT having fun. Same way as how some of the best movies aren't always enjoyable to watch. I don't believe that an AI created soulslike would be any good because it would miss that some stuff is meant to feel frustrating or kinda bs or unfair at first.

[–] hackerbone 1 day ago
its only a few months away when we'll be vibe coding GTA 7 full e2e - make no mistakes kinda vibe
[–] hackerbone 1 day ago
and that too using three.js haha