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points by red_candle_wax 1 day ago | 0 comments

Wait till the "where's the line" boosters learn groups like the Amish who have mostly drawn a line. They'll be clamoring for legal loopholes to steal the land from those luddites so that they can buid the future on it!

[–] paxy 1 day ago

So what do you do if your company hires an engineer and on the first day they say "I am Amish and cannot touch a computer"? Give them a religions exemption? What then? Are you obligated to pay their salary for the rest of their life?

[–] cwnyth 1 day ago

You're missing a major component of the law:

> Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 requires employers to make reasonable accommodations for an applicant or employee whose sincerely held religious belief, practice, or observance conflicts with a work requirement, *unless providing the accommodation would create an undue hardship for the employer.*

If using a computer is necessary for the job, then the religious exemption would create undue hardship. Presumably for this Kentucky guy's job he can get his work done without AI and the university isn't suffering for it.

[–] paxy 1 day ago

So all a company has to do is say "AI is necessary for the job" and the exemption no longer applies. Then why are we even having this discussion?

[–] cwnyth 1 day ago

Because if neither side budges, it goes to court to figure out what's reasonable, like with any other dispute. This is pretty basic stuff.

[–] bluefirebrand 1 day ago

How would you possibly prove that AI is necessary for a job when someone has been doing the job successfully for years before AI?

Sounds like a tough argument to make to me

[–] AustinDev 1 day ago

Let's say your company makes holes. The year is 2026 so you use excavators because they are good at digging holes quickly. Would you hire a guy who refuses to use an excavator but will happily use a shovel?

[–] bluefirebrand 1 day ago

My argument that you seem to have completely missed: If the guy with the shovel is already satisfying 100% of my hole digging needs, why would I spend the extra money for an excavator?

[–] MentalM 1 day ago

How would you possibly prove that AI is necessary for a job when someone has been doing the job successfully for years before AI?

Same for computers and engineering.

[–] Jtarii 1 day ago

Computers were introduced to the workplace over the course of 50 years, not 4 years.

[–] MentalM 1 day ago

Computers were introduced overnight. One Monday the engineer went to work, and bang! There is a computer waiting for him, deal with it or go find another job. People at that time not joked around, were too busy building affordable houses, medicine, education, groceries and childcare. No way they would put up with some snowflakes who has some "beliefs" get in the way of creating all that societal goods.

[–] goodmythical 1 day ago

You filter out any such applicant with digital applications for digital postings requiring proficiency with digital tools.

Any such potential candidate passing these is then given an interview in which technical questions relevant to the question are asked.

I'm really not sure how you imagine a luddite makes it all the way to their first day to drop some weird "oh, I can't actually do this job btw" bomb.

Even supposing they do, they have a job description requiring that they perform certain tasks that are within the realm of reasonable expectations as set by the government.

Someone in a wheelchair isn't going to get hired for any "must be able to regularly lift and move weights over 50 pounds" job just because of equal employment opportunity as they can't perform the legally allowed requirements.

[–] paxy 1 day ago

And what if someone decides to convert after starting the job?

[–] goodmythical 1 day ago

They'd be found incapable of performing the tasks they agreed to perform in their contract.

You don't get to violate a contract just because you changed religions.

[–] danso 1 day ago

How would this person who hasn’t touched a computer for years, end up in the candidate pool for computer-using engineers?

[–] paxy 1 day ago

Who says they haven't touched a computer for years? There's no requirement for your beliefs to be consistent. Otherwise there wouldn't be a single religious person left in the world. You can interview on a computer and reveal your religious preferences on the first day of the job.

[–] danso 1 day ago

Yeah but you realize that religious exemptions aren’t just automatically rubber stamped? That employers can deny them on the basis of lack of sincerity? How realistic is it that someone can have a career with computers, and then on the first day of the job, prove that they’ve gone all-in on an anti-computer religion?

[–] ranger_danger 1 day ago

> There's no requirement for your beliefs to be consistent

I would bet money a judge would argue that inconsistent/arbitrary beliefs are in fact not "sincerely held" beliefs as defined under Title VII.

Also, SCOTUS made a ruling in 2023 that a business is allowed to take "undue hardship" into consideration for the company as a whole, meaning they can still fire (or not hire) you if your beliefs would be detrimental to the success of the business.

[–] cwnyth 1 day ago

The fact that all this stuff is easily accessible online and yet some people think they can just out-logic the law is mind-boggling to me. Oh, you never studied law in your life but you're criticizing a 60-year old law that has been hashed out over and over again? Dunning-Kruger strikes again.

[–] ranger_danger 1 day ago

Agreed... I feel like this is many people in general though (and esp. online forums/social media where people like to act smart); always with the armchair experts confidently stating uneducated guesses as dogma.

And the Dunning-Kruger effect also applies to "smart" people. You don't stop when you're estimating your ability correctly; as you learn more, you gain more awareness of your ignorance and continue being conservative with your self-estimates.

[–] bluGill 1 day ago

There are a lot of weird ways interviews are done. I wouldn't be surprised if someone's interview process didn't screen for is someone even an engineer.

Though nothing about the Amish prohibits being a computer using engineer. Their rejection of technology is a lot more nuanced.

[–] Toynbeeidea 1 day ago

Because he was hired when the company still used typewriters.

[–] eesmith 1 day ago

Read up on EEOC regulation and you'll see your example won't fly. Exceptions must be reasonable and not cause undue hardship on the employer.

"An accommodation may cause undue hardship if it is costly, compromises workplace safety, decreases workplace efficiency, infringes on the rights of other employees, or requires other employees to unwillingly do more than their share of potentially hazardous or burdensome work." - https://www.eeoc.gov/religious-discrimination

Otherwise we would all be joining a religion which require 360 days of religious festivities each year.