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points by pen2l 1 day ago | 0 comments

Formlabs uses a proprietary resin cartridge... it's the paper printers situation all over again, the printers themselves are not that expensive but the disposable ink costs an arm and a leg.

Don't go with Formlabs, support any of the open-platform alternatives.

And also, be aware that these printers require some serious development work (you need solvent to wash away uncured resin (if you ask me, this basically necessitates a chemical hood... Formlabs will happily upsell the "Form Wash" for this for another 699). If uncured resin falls on your floor (which has happened to me a little too many times), boy is it a horror cleaning it up even if you have industrial grade solvents; FDM printers are easier and their "ink" is much, much less expensive by comparison.

[–] mhb 1 day ago

It says it includes "Open Material Mode" which let's you "...print with any 405 nm photopolymer resin or 1064 nm powder on Formlabs 3D printers..."

[–] numpad0 1 day ago

I believe the Open mode in Form printers disable couples of interesting features that don't seem strongly connected to material properties of resin used, like resin recovery to tank and vat stirring wiper.

Form resin vats/tanks/tray/bed/whatever you call it are also not just proprietary, but their equivalent of FEP film is not replaceable. The resin vat usually have what is referred to as FEP film, a thin transparent Teflon sheet at the bottom of about a phone screen protector thickness and durability, stretched and pre-tensioned like a drum. The non-adhesion performance of film affects print quality, and it needs replacement eventually(I believe it is characterized as after x thousand layers printed, internally by printer manufacturers). On most printers, the replacement film can be bought and installed by the user. Formlabs printers use something other than regular FEP, and uses tool-less assembly that cannot be reversed, and therefore the whole proprietary tank needs to be discarded and replaced.

It's like Bambu Lab but the printbed is proprietary too and heated bed turns off for non-Bambu filaments. As if proprietary nozzles was not enough.

[–] torginus 21 hours ago

Yeah, but Bambu parts are extremely cheap considering their quality.

[–] krisoft 23 hours ago

> and vat stirring wiper

The printer model in question doesn’t have that feature.

[–] augment_me 1 day ago

The amount of upselling, extra parts necessary for basic functionality, predatory resin pricing and specific open "modes" that are free to be subjects to amendment by contract makes this seem like a cash grab for investors rather than serious product. Really sour taste in the mouth from this.

Just buy an open source version from China that has the necessary hardware in an open format and let Claude adjust the software if there are concerns.

[–] jdboyd 1 day ago

I'm unclear what the open source version from China of a resin printer is. Creatlity and Elegoo don't appear to be at all it as they lock you to the chitubox ecosystem.

[–] coupdejarnac 1 day ago

I use prusaslicer and uvtools with my Elegoo Saturn. No proprietary lockin. I also own a Prusa, so I don't feel bad using their software with another brand.

[–] jdboyd 5 hours ago

Thank you. I didn't know that worked.

[–] Hackbraten 22 hours ago

Same here, PrusaSlicer and a custom uvtools workflow with an Anycubic Mono M7 Pro.

[–] bsder 1 day ago

> Just buy an open source version from China

References and links?

There is currently no open source version of the high resolution monochrome LCDs. The LCDs and their drivers lock you into the Chitu ecosystem.

The problem, as Chitu figured out, is that as soon as you cough up the NRE to make the LCDs and make it publicly available, EVERYBODY will copy you and then there will be no profit left to sink the NRE that you just spent.

[–] Dylan16807 1 day ago

I don't follow. If you developed a special screen can't you profit just fine off selling the screen? Why would locked drivers be needed?

[–] ssl-3 1 day ago

Maybe you could be happy with that, or perhaps I could be as well, but you and I aren't ChiTu. And ChiTu is free to do whatever they want (including doing nothing at all).

And that matters because statements like "just buy an open Chinese printer" are non-starters. The machines themselves have the soul of ChiTu inside of them and openness isn't really their jam.

So while the PC software that produces the layer images can be replaced, the printer's brains stays the same.

(This is very different compared to the world of conventional world of FDM printers, wherein: It's just some sensors, motors, heaters, and sensors; a screen, if present, is optional. A person can replace the brainbox of a traditional FDM Cartesian rig with open, off-the-shelf parts and be printing something in an afternoon, and there's a whole industry providing parts to support this kind of thing.

ChiTu isn't that way.)

[–] Dylan16807 15 hours ago

Well I don't understand the paragraph you wrote starting with "The problem, as Chitu figured out". Did they figure out an actual problem or did they hallucinate a problem?

Does their proprietary software affect their profit at all?

[–] ssl-3 14 hours ago

I did not write that paragraph, my friend.

I don't know why ChiTu does whatever they do. All I know is that demonstrate a trend of keeping their source buttoned up instead of open.

[–] zimpenfish 1 day ago

* If you buy the "Form Studio 1 Resin Tank Pro" extra at $79 because the included tank "is not compatible with Tough 1500 Resin or materials needing to utilize Open Material Mode"

[–] y1n0 1 day ago

OMG $79 more! That ruins everything!

[–] geerlingguy 1 day ago

You need to buy a tank anyway, which is $50 or so — that works with their new Alpha resins. The slightly more expensive tank is necessary only for their engineering-grade resins (only a couple are certified for the Studio 1 so far) and 'OMM' (Open Material Mode), which as mentioned above, comes out of the box on the Studio 1.

(Not replying to you directly, but generally to this thread)

[–] zimpenfish 21 hours ago

$79 per consumable tank, yes, which is rated for 75000 layers (according to [0]) which is "approximately 190 prints with an average height of 39 mm at a layer height of 100 µm" - not that long if you're printing regularly.

In contrast, I can get 6 FEP sheets for my Mars 2 Pro for $21 which don't appear to have any official lifetimes but generic internet advice says "40-50 prints" on the low side. That'd be 240 prints for $21 compared with 190 prints for $79.

[0] https://www.igo3d.com/en/formlabs-form-studio-1-resin-tank-p...

[–] 650REDHAIR 1 day ago

$79 per tank.

Along with some issues with the screen and the non-pro resins.

It’s anti-consumer.

They want to be the HP/Bambu of resin printers.

[–] roboror 17 hours ago

You can use any filament with Bambu printers

[–] onion2k 1 day ago

I'm not suggesting Formlabs would do this, but advertising the $79 add-on and then making very few of them available would be a way for a manufacturer to look open while actually not supporting openness.

[–] avianlyric 1 day ago

The $79 addon is also needed to use all of Formlabs existing engineering grade resins, which are more expensive than the Alpha resins. The engineering grade Tough 1500 is already validated on the Studio 1, and requires the $79 tank, plus is a major selling point of this printer.

There no reason for FormLabs to limit supply of the $79 tanks, it would also limit their ability to sell their more expensive resins to Studio 1 customers, and also removes a clear pathway to get people to upgrade to their more expensive machines, capable of working with their even more complex, and expensive, engineering resins.

[–] bb88 1 day ago

Isn't that the Prusa model? IIRC Prusa would release something, and then force you to get on a waitlist.

I'm not saying I hate Prusa here, I'm saying that limited availability is a common practice to drive hype.

[–] geerlingguy 1 day ago

I don't even think they're driving hype, they just have a problem common in the hardware world, they are far too optimistic in their shipping timeline.

Versus a company like Bambu who seems to ramp up production now, in advance of selling the product.

[–] doug_life 1 day ago

This printer at least comes with the "Open Material Mode (included)" that lets you print with 3rd party resins. I'm sure the workflow won't be quite as nice as with the Formlabs native resin. That is unless you can somehow refill the old jugs or buy empty ones. Before long I imagine 3rd party compatible containers will show up.

[–] 405nm 1 day ago

@pen2l what are you even talking about…?

1) form studio can use any material out of the box you just have to design your own print settings for it

2) form studio wash + cure is $200, not $699

3) the new resins are UL certified for low voc/indoor use, as well as score as non-skin irritants (OECD 439), and post-processed parts comply with ISO 10993 for long term skin contact

4) the new resins cost $30-$50ish per L, as opposed to fdm ~$25ish per kg. you also have to buy a tank that eventually wears out but imo when i’m printing a lot with the same material the tank cost doesn’t add much to the overall

5) fdm is great too, i have both in my shop. you should always use the right process and material for the job. if you need higher detail than what fdm can provide, more sophisticated materials, and an order of magnitude higher volumetric print speed, the form studio is a great option.

source: i don’t work at formlabs, but i used to

[–] esperent 1 day ago

They're talking about this Form Wash V2 which looks to be priced at $699

https://formlabs.com/global/products/form-wash/

[–] ramboldio 22 hours ago

I have a Phrozen SLA printer, and I would actually appreciate it if they integrated their design with the resin formulation more. Sure, it sounds bad to be locked into some material ecosystem, but resins are just not 'plug and play' by default, as filament is in FDM printing.

I just want it to print and not study chemistry & physics before doing anything. Formlabs seems to be able to deliver that.

[–] geerlingguy 1 day ago

> Formlabs will happily upsell the "Form Wash" for this for another 699

(A separate aside, since the main ones were addressed: Formlabs also launched a new "Wash+Cure" station that does wash and cure for $199, instead of their standalone (but better, of course) units that cost something like $1000 together.)

[–] mrheosuper 1 day ago

I love resin printer, but boys the amount of post-processing is really off-putting.

[–] 0_____0 1 day ago

I run two Form 3's and run functional prototypes often. If you don't specifically need prints that are good in the way that SLA prints are good, don't get one. There's also the issue of managing and disposing of uncured resins (hello photoinitiators! we gotta keep you out of the water table!) and waste solvent. All the SLA vendors are real quiet about what you're supposed to do with the waste. "Just do whatever your local regs require."

[–] jdboyd 1 day ago

What are the open-platform alternatives? I was under the impression that the majority of printers used the CHITUBOX hardware platform internally, which was now locked to the CHITUBOX slicer. Has this changed? That would be wonderful news.

I don't think that Formlabs locks you into their wash and cure stations. Some of their printers lock you into their resin, but it looks like the Form Studio 1 discussed above and the Form 3, 3L, 4, and 4L let you use resin of your choice, although the Studio 1 does require you to buy a special $80 tray.

[–] pen2l 1 day ago

> I don't think that Formlabs locks you into their wash and cure stations.

I would posit from the the getgo the average joe shouldn't consider resin printers, they should opt for FDM printers, because with FDM printers when the printer finishes printing a part... that's it! You more or less just pick it up from the printbed and there you have it... with resin printers, you -HAVE- to wash away the surrounding uncured resin. So, sure, it doesn't lock you into the wash and cure station, but doing it manually is an absolute chore any which way and chances of getting gooey resin on your hands, your clothes, your furniture goes way up and it is the most profoundly annoying thing when it does.

Try out a resin printer at your local makerspace to see what they're all about and the work that's required to print a part and develop it with solvents; for yourself get an FDM printer, they're plenty good enough for the average joe.

[–] jdboyd 5 hours ago

My local maker space only has fdm. Formlabs claims to have a new line of healthier resins which can be used on non formlabs printers, which had made me curious again about resin.

[–] everforward 1 day ago

Agreed, but it's worth calling out that some niches more or less require resin.

Anything small and aesthetic is going to basically require resin. Warhammer minis and jewelry (tiny filigree) come to mind.

FDMs have gotten better, but you're still not going to get those fine sub-millimeter details like you can with resin.

[–] specproc 1 day ago

Yeah, resin is a must for minis.

I outsource to a guy a know who's a jeweller and has his workflow down. Tried doing it myself and hated it.

[–] mcv 19 hours ago

Is it? I've heard of people getting good results with PLA and a 0.2mm nozzle. I don't doubt resin is better, but PLA seems to be acceptable to a lot of people. And it's far safer and cheaper.

[–] numpad0 1 day ago

IIRC, ChiTu Systems once tried to use their leverage against the printer brands that rely on their components, and printer brands pushed back by seeking an alternative systems supplier with a new slicer. ChiTu-based printers have gained compatibility for alternative slicers after that.

[–] jumpingpants 1 day ago

I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate these Formlabs printers. I am dealing with them at work and wish to be working on anything else.

[–] jpk 1 day ago

Perhaps you can emphasize the reasons you don't like them?

[–] bigwheels 1 day ago

Do you have any specific recomendations?

[–] qwertytyyuu 1 day ago

One of the main reasons to get the studio one is the UL GREENGUARD Gold Certification right? Their resins are much safer.

[–] TacticalCoder 1 day ago

> And also, be aware that these printers require some serious development work (you need solvent to wash away uncured resin (if you ask me, this basically necessitates a chemical hood...

As a 3D printer enthusiast (I model stuff in OpenSCAD and print to fix / DIY stuff around the house/car etc.) and seen how easy 3D printing using filament as become, resin 3D printers just seem... Extremely messy to me.

I understand that for people doing stuff like miniatures resin might be more precise (but filament printers with tiny nozzles became extremely precise too) but it just feels like a lot of work compared to... Just 3D print with filament.

I may be wrong though.

[–] m4rtink 19 hours ago

Yeah & as I have said before - I'd rather fix my printer every 5 prints and/or have worse print quality, than to use a printer I can't fix & can't use generic material of my choice on.

[–] dyauspitr 1 day ago

If you’ve ever used resin printers, you know the cartridges are a good thing because the liquid inside is basically carcinogenic if it comes in contact with your skin, so a lot of people just don’t do resin printing for exactly that reason and this gets around that.

[–] pen2l 1 day ago

Except you will have failed prints (for me it's 1 out of every 20 with my form 4 with the kinds of parts I tend to print), which will require taking out the tank to clean obstructions and free-floating debris... and when you're having to filter the resin (like so: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/UdX94R3k7YU ), it's exceedingly hard to not get it in contact with your skin.

[–] code_biologist 1 day ago

I agree that resin cartridges don't handle the resin handling problem.

Nitrile/latex gloves + eye protection + respirator are the absolute minimum for resin printing PPE. A long sleeve shirt wouldn't go amiss for rare flicked resin droplets. If you're not confident in your ability to prevent skin contact with resin, you shouldn't be doing resin printing.

[–] thenthenthen 1 day ago

Right. Just opening a bottle of this kind of photopolymer instantly sends DANGER signals from my nose to my brain (and my spine) causing my whole body to almost seize up. I cant believe reading some comments where people seem to be handing this stuff with their bare hands?!

[–] dyauspitr 15 hours ago

I think they’ve considered a lot of these problems from the perspective of handling resin when they designed the system. The vapors are carcinogenic too, so they have an inbuilt air filteration system. The whole washing and UV curing stations can be done without ever having to touch the resin. I guess I don’t know what happens in case of a failure and how you have to deal with the pool of resin in the bottom of the plate even after a successful print job.

EDIT: So I looked it up a bit more and it seems like in the case of failed prints. If you want to clean out the resin, it does have a partial solution that helps you print out a cleaning sheet to capture all the debris so you may not have to do filtering also after a successful print, you can just leave the leftover resin in the tray that does not need to be dealt with.