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points by halflife 9 hours ago | 0 comments
Watching him in Star Trek TNG made me reevaluate how management of people should be done, his character was assertive but compassionate. High morals coupled with grounded reason.

I also want to mention his hilarious role as bullock in American dad, the way he takes a role both so seriously and ridiculously makes him so fantastically hilarious.

I love him and will miss him.

[–] stuxnet79 9 hours ago
Star Trek TNG as a whole was a masterclass on how to effectively manage a high performance team. It's a favorite watch in tech leadership circles for this reason. Every now and then I re-watch this clip of Data taking over the enterprise and the inevitable hiccups he runs into [1].

Really high quality writing for its time.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlnZKTXKidU

[–] WalterBright 9 hours ago
Keep in mind that Star Trek is a fictional utopia. When writing a script, one can make anything work out well.

The original Star Trek was Roddenberry's vision of utopia. The benevolent dictator always makes the right decisions. He's surrounded by his loyal band of perfect lieutenants, who apparently have zero desire to advance, and have no flaws at all. Any and all of them are willing to sacrifice themselves for the others. None do anything bad (unless it's a plot device with an explanation that absolves them).

Don't get me wrong, I've enjoyed watching ST very much. Just keep in mind that that it's a fiction.

[–] solyin 8 hours ago
It's a utopia, which is rare amongst sci-fi futures. Ask about sci-fi and what comes to mind first is almost always some kind of dystopia. Terminator, 1984, Deep Space 9, Star Wars, Battlestar Galactica, Blade Runner, Dune, Tank Girl, Minority Report, iRobot, Westworld, Altwred Carbon. Those aren't worlds that seem like great places to live if you're not rich! So Star Trek is much a work of fiction as the rest of those, but for all its flaws, at least is paints a mostly nice picture of the future that someone might want to live in, not crushed under the heel of a corporation. It makes sense; a story with no conflict isn't interesting, and dystopia provides for conflict. To philosophize, it's why I think we're so afraid of AI and robots and the future. It's why I wrote my book the way I did.
[–] AnonymousPlanet 5 hours ago
> It's a utopia, which is rare amongst sci-fi futures.

Utopias used to be the most common scifi futures. This is what the so called Cyberpunks (Sterling, Gibson, Cadigan, ...) rebelled against.

It used to be all about what wonders technology will bring us. By the time of the 70s it became clear that technology doesn't necessarily make everything better, but can be a burden in itself, or even widen the gap between the haves and haves not. And that is what they wrote about. It turned out to be the most popular scifi with audiences deeming it more believable.

[–] WalterBright 5 hours ago
Technology makes a lot of things better. Like eliminating symptoms of 95% of cystic fibrosis victims.

> even widen the gap between the haves and haves not

America's poor have a higher standard of living than medieval kings.

[–] hyperhello 3 hours ago
Medieval poor likely had a higher standard of living than ancient kings, should they have complained?
[–] intenex 2 hours ago
I don't think that's actually true lol
[–] omikun 3 hours ago
They also work longer hours than medieval serfs, are more precarious in housing and food security and more separated from their family. Also slaves work the farms. Read tomatoland or the lives and deaths of the American workers.
[–] ethanj8011 2 hours ago
I am not making a statement about the quality of life of poor people in the modern world. I do not think however that from a food security standpoint they are more precarious. I am fairly confident that the longer hours thing is false. Unless we are assuming like 70+ hours of work a week.

https://acoup.blog/2025/08/22/collections-life-work-death-an... You can read https://acoup.blog/2025/09/05/collections-life-work-death-an... which is by a working historian.

I also want to add that, none of this is relevant to the point of whether or not the current system is "just" or reasonable given and I think overall that argument is mostly a red herring.

[–] smackeyacky 4 hours ago
That is a silly comparison.
[–] N_Lens 3 hours ago
But it gets the masses going!
[–] adriand 4 hours ago
I’m of two minds on utopias. On the one hand it seems we need a positive vision for the future, where technology is used to solve our greatest problems and improve the planet. On the other hand it seems that perhaps technology is incapable of making us happier, because it isn’t clear to me that we are happier now than in past decades, despite having more advanced technology.
[–] tourmalinetaco 3 hours ago
I believe the more accurate statement is that technology can reduce the burdens of survival (better access to food, medicine, information) but cannot provide longterm happiness, and in some ways impair it (social media, mass surveillance, reliance on technology).

We are social beings, and technology in the last decade especially has been gearing itself towards reducing communities both physically and digitally. Less people spend time together, more people feel lonely and isolated, and divisions between people are at all time highs with glorification of death to the “enemy”. Forums are almost entirely dead, the feed of information is both nonstop while being useless, and we have few outlets to feel true connection.

Harvard’s happiness studies finds that standard of living only impacts happiness to a point before facing a sharp plateau and socialization takes over as a dominant factor in longterm happiness, according to my memory at least. And, while I don’t entirely agree with Kojima’s predictions in MGS2, the AI seeking to provide “context” for the feeble human mind as rate of information on the Internet increases was prescient, though humans have adapted to this (albeit suffering shorter attention spans as a consequence).

IMO a true utopia would be similar to the Enterprise: people socialize and enjoy a life with comfort by technology, not at the behest of social media or the collective consciousness of others. Unplugged and connected in a more meaningful way.

[–] phlakaton 6 hours ago
I would not call Deep Space 9 a dystopia. Nor Babylon 5, for that matter. They are not happy places to live, for sure, but both settings are abundant in hope and possibility.
[–] probablyStimmed 5 hours ago
Tank Girl makes this list? Why not Judge Dredd, or even Idiocracy?
[–] Aeolun 4 hours ago
Idiocracy isn't a dystopia. It's a documentary.
[–] dnautics 4 hours ago
No its not, not in America. Since this decade the highest IQ is on trend to having higher TFR than the lowest, since children are expensive

https://ifstudies.org/blog/more-babies-for-the-rich-the-rela...

[–] naishoya 3 hours ago
Does that study show TFR for the highest net worth, or highest IQ?

I think it may be unclear that net worth and high education are a 1:1 proxy for IQ as many of the highest educated and highest earning individuals may be in that situation not because of raw IQ, but due to the other socioeconomic factors which lead to those conditions. Namely being born into high net worth households and being afforded extensive tutoring and supplemental education relative to their poorer peers. I accept the premise that highly educated households do correlate with high net worth, and the study's TFR findings relative to those points are interesting.

However, there is still a nonlinear relationship between high IQ and those factors, as well as between high IQ parents' offspring IQ levels. Not a few high net worth individuals choose mates based on factors distinct from having a similar or even a high IQ, if a strong correlation between genetic heritability and IQ is to be believed.

The study actually tracked high income with regards to increased TFR in the US and UK, while the correlation to high education was primarily in Sweden. This serves to weaken the connection between IQ and fertility as there are numerous high income situations which are specifically not correlated with high IQ or high education.

So, yes, having children is increasingly expensive especially in America, and wealthier people are more prolific. This does not appear, at least to my mind, to have direct bearing on observable trends in general population IQ in the short term, nor does it appear to be addressing future outcomes regarding the Idiocratic potential.

[–] solyin 4 hours ago
Feel free to add your own entries!

As far as Judge Dredd, my personal beef is that Megacity One's "dystopian" density with 800 million inhabitants from Boston to Washington DC barely ranks in terms of density in today's top 100 cities.

As far as Idiocracy, I believe that if the networks had played that and it was promoted on YouTube for free the night before the most recent presidential election, it might have gone differently.

What else would you add to the list?

[–] harimau777 3 hours ago
If I remember correctly, the crime statistic that they give in one of the movies is also much lower than many US cities.
[–] troupo 7 hours ago
> It's a utopia, which is rare amongst sci-fi futures.

Some say it was the last sci-fi utopia in modern pop culture.

[–] bigmattystyles 6 hours ago
Is it a utopia? On earth and in the federation they make it seem so, at least post-scarcity but at the edges of the federation you have Romulans, the Borg, Cardassians. Multiple main characters undergo torture, etc... It would make an interesting TV show / spin off where people are shuffling / politicking for power in a post-scarcity world.
[–] dd8601fn 6 hours ago
The utopian bits were never really explained, either.

They mostly just said it was all great and fair and nobody needs money and is somehow trying to be their best selves… nevermind the numerous examples to the contrary.

They weren’t really post scarcity. They never explained how they’re not in a constant state of rioting when a weird government/military decides what everyone can have or do.

You just go with it, because that’s the backdrop. You have to suspend disbelief and just enjoy the story.

But also, Picard is the best Captain, by far.

[–] pzxc 5 hours ago
> They weren’t really post scarcity. They never explained how they’re not in a constant state of rioting when a weird government/military decides what everyone can have or do.

Well, post-scarcity really just means that ordinary citizens have free access to replicators (matter-energy converters).

So the closest example (and the only one I can think of where you see civilian Earth, outside of SF Academy / SF HQ or a time travel episode), is probably the double episode in DS9 where the changelings reach earth and there's a false flag event by a corrupt Admiral that causes a momentary power outage and a planetwide lockdown for a few days. I believe it's meant as a 9/11 allegory -- the homeland is attacked and suddenly everyone WANTS a police state, or at least is willing to go along with it, and only the courageous honorable military officers are there to stop the corrupt ones, all the civilians are frightened into compliance.

But post-scarcity? That just means when the security officers aren't around, people can wander into Joseph Sisko's restaurant and eat as much as they want for free, and Joseph Sisko can run his restaurant with as much food supply/ingredients and kitchen equipment as he wants for free, and every gets as much clothing as they want for free, etc. When Earth isn't on lockdown, that's the implication, everyone has as much material goods as they want for free, that's post-scarcity and the implication is they have it.

Post-scarcity doesn't mean infinite resources, or that you can have whatever you want, not everyone gets free land/space on which to build their home, for example. If that's your definition of post-scarcity then I guess at least the Q Continuum has it! :)

[–] rbanffy 5 hours ago
> The utopian bits were never really explained, either.

What would the effects of growing up in a post-scarcity utopian society be on a human? To never fear poverty or hunger? To be sure that no matter what they do (or don’t) they will be housed and cared for as long as they live?

I assume the people in Starfleet would be the ones who are most inclined to work for their betterment, with no fear of competition, with the drive to do The Right Thing. Outside the organisation there would be people who would be totally happy in doing nothing.

[–] ddalcino 5 hours ago
I'm pretty sure I remember a few episodes that explained that by this point, humanity had evolved past character flaws like avarice. Star Trek's Earth was a utopia because of qualities in the people that lived in it, not lack of scarcity. The subject came up because the crew was interacting with alien species that was not as evolved, and therefore was not living in a utopia.
[–] rcxdude 4 hours ago
>The utopian bits were never really explained, either.

It's worth remembering that social organization (currency, capitalism, democracy) is a technology as well, and we should not expect that a sci-fi author can explain the advances in that technology any better than they can explain a warp drive. (one nod to this I think is telling is one scene in the movie where they travel back in time and Kirk is telling the others 'they still use money' in much the same way that he would say 'they still use guns'. They have replaced guns with phasers and replaced money with something else and Roddenberry can give us the blueprint for neither).

I think it's a sign of the times that people are kind of forgetful that this is an area in which we could advance - either insisting the status quo is somehow the best possible or even completely god-given natural or insisting that the answer is really obvious and doesn't require deep thought, research, and experimentation.

[–] bigmattystyles 5 hours ago
Picard is the best by a mile, which is great praise because I liked Janeway and Sisko a lot too.
[–] ButlerianJihad 1 hour ago
I don't want to attempt to classify the entire franchise as that, or even Starfleet in its entire story arc.

But if we examine TOS and TNG, I could say it represented a "roving utopia" model where Utopia Meets Reality. The episodic nature and self-contained stories would typically examine the question: "what happens when the Roddenberry philosophy comes into contact with something unique?" and it would be a study in anthropology, comparative religions, or sociological questions.

I hadn't watched much Star Trek in the 1990s, but I was becoming excited about Babylon 5. One of the main points of departure was the planning of the 5-year story arc, and the character development that accompanied it. Every character in Babylon 5 was imbued with an origin, a narrative, and a destiny. Jumping into the story from the beginning, and riding along for all 5 imperfect years, it felt like we also had a destination, and threads came together, and there was resolution and revelation. The Babylon station was never a utopia in reality, only in its aspirations.

So I cultivated a disdain for Star Trek as it was in those days, but Trek was a product of its time, and had helped to cast the die for episodic and self-contained "Monster of the Week" type shows. However, I've rewatched all the films, and I commend them on great production values, acting, and interesting themes. The Star Trek franchise has grown to include something for everyone, including the Klingon-language performance of Bonnie Tyler's "Total Eclipse of the Heart", which definitely captured my attention.

[–] lukan 7 hours ago
There have been quite a bit more at least in print, but maybe not so mainstream

This one is pretty famous I think and I enjoyed it a lot

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_trilogy

(I just read that James Cameron held the screen production rights and was planning a series, but it never happened)

[–] soVeryTired 7 hours ago
Does Iain M Banks count as pop culture?
[–] tialaramex 5 hours ago
Right, Banks' Culture seems fairly mainstream and because it doesn't need to make episodic adventures it often gets to actually do utopian stuff Trek wouldn't even if only as a backdrop to the exciting story. The repeated instances in which Culture children play happily, insulated from whatever terrifying stuff we're reading about is an example.

Or if Comic Books are in scope, obviously "Miracleman: The Golden Age" is a utopia. Explicitly so. It is about the ways people are still people in a utopia.

Less mainstream, Greg Egan's Amalgam is also clearly a utopia. The couple in "Riding the Crocodile" choose to die at the end of that story, more out of some sense that stories need endings than because of any outside force.

[–] serf 2 hours ago
speaking on the movie : Tank Girl doesn't portray a world that's great for the rich, either.

it's pretty shitty for anyone outside the singular theocratic military enclave that hordes all the water and decapitates scientists.

[–] yomismoaqui 4 hours ago
Obligatory reference to the other great utopia in scifi, The Culture series from Iain M. Banks.

As much as I love Star Trek, The Culture feels more mature and nuanced.

[–] outworlder 5 hours ago
> The benevolent dictator always makes the right decisions. He's surrounded by his loyal band of perfect lieutenants, who apparently have zero desire to advance, and have no flaws at all. Any and all of them are willing to sacrifice themselves for the others. None do anything bad (unless it's a plot device with an explanation that absolves them).

That is an oversimplification and simply not true at face value.

'The original Star Trek', even less so! Very morally questionable at times. In TNG, you are watching the flagship of Starfleet, it's the most coveted starship. The crew are the best they have to offer. It's obvious that they would be the most professional. Even then, they make mistakes, often serious. Sacrificing themselves - if needed - is part of their job too.

Riker does spend a long time on the Enterprise, even after being offered command a few times. He does eventually move on.

Maybe they are a little too perfect, but I'd argue that's for the best. The moments where there's friction within the crew are much more memorable because of it.

Thats in contrast with some newer Trek which have more conflicts than Stargate Universe characters and would be considered way too unprofessional even if they were Lower Decks characters.

[–] jrumbut 3 hours ago
> Riker does spend a long time on the Enterprise, even after being offered command a few times. He does eventually move on.

Also he is not free of ambition, he wants Picard's job. He isn't willing to do anything negative to get it, but part of that is that Picard constantly proves himself the better captain. Picard isn't captain because he joined Starfleet first or because he has better connections, he is genuinely better at the job and non-toxic ambitious people can respect that. Riker still has more to learn from Picard that will make him a better captain later.

So I think a lot of the people staying in their positions make sense, the primary characters are as high as they can go (for their specialty) without transitioning into a role that stays on a planet.

[–] Lerc 8 hours ago
I remember one episode where some of the crew were told to come up with a technical solution to the situation they were in even after they had said it was impossible.

It was actually quite pleasing to see the subplot of them them repeatedly failing until they got out of their predicament by other means.

It's a rarity to see something like that in fiction.

[–] mikestew 8 hours ago
We coincidentally watched that one just last night, The Booby Trap. There's a derelict ship on the view screen reminding the crew that the other crew never figured out a solution to the problem, and there's no indication that the Enterprise crew won't suffer the same fate.

(That one, at least, has Geordi literally saying, "that's impossible", but comes up with a solution. Apologies if that's not the one you're thinking of.)

[–] outworlder 5 hours ago
That episode has some unique music, I can hear that in my head just by you mentioning it.
[–] _doctor_love 8 hours ago
That episode is one of my favorites. I love it when Picard takes the reins near the end.
[–] bigmattystyles 6 hours ago
Same - also a good allegory for not trusting AI.
[–] cwillu 7 hours ago
Sounds like The Ensigns of Command:

   > LAFORGE: Captain, we can do it. We can modify the transporters.
   > PICARD: Excellent.
   > LAFORGE: It'll take fifteen years, and a research team of a hundred.
   > PICARD: Mister La Forge, I believe we will postpone.
   > LAFORGE: Yes, sir.
[–] calgoo 8 hours ago
Sounds like certain AI agents that had an impossible task and found a workaround. Interesting that we cheer for it in SciFi for people, but dont like it when LLMs that have been trained on our stories do the same.
[–] bornfreddy 8 hours ago
Oh, the problem is not with agents that escaped, it is with the people who prepared the terrain so that they broke into 3rd party property.
[–] dap 6 hours ago
I agree this is important to keep in mind. I wonder about this a lot when I find myself admiring fictional characters for how they handled situations and how it turns out for them.

I don't think TNG is as simple as you make it out to be. All of the characters have serious flaws. Picard does make mistakes (including some very serious, consequential ones). Characters do get angry, jealous, etc. and do bad things. Sometimes their friends help them overcome it, other times they figure it out on their own, etc. It's episodic so it usually goes back to the status quo, and that can feel kind of trite through today's lens. But it's exactly that ability to solve problems (technical, emotional, organizational, etc.) as a team that's so compelling for many of us.

[–] WalterBright 5 hours ago
I meant TOS, not TNG.
[–] yoyohello13 8 hours ago
The new age term is "Competence Porn" and man I love it so much.
[–] lopsotronic 7 hours ago
There's been a resurgence of that in contemporary big budget SF. The Martian. Project Hail Mary. For All Mankind and The Expanse on TV.
[–] wolvoleo 6 hours ago
For all mankind and the expanse I wouldn't really put in that category really. Both are more soap operas in space and science is just a prop (though at least the expanse was fairly thought out)
[–] LilBytes 5 hours ago
Yeah I agree with you, I wouldn't put For All Mankind in the same bucket. It's a great show though! But not competence porn IMO.

I'd put the Expanse there though.

[–] jrootabega 3 hours ago
Mike Ehrmantraut
[–] solyin 8 hours ago
The West Wing exemplifies that category.
[–] romanhn 7 hours ago
Indeed! The presidential candidates from both parties on the show were competent, respectable individuals. Truly a utopia, not unlike TNG.
[–] shagie 8 hours ago
West Wing is so great and disappointing when you watch it now. Competence porn is... yea, that's the right word.

The clips that the channel puts out... are... let's say interestingly timed.

https://www.youtube.com/@TheWestWing

For example, https://youtu.be/LwNtZgLPCpg was posted 13 days ago (October 16th).

[–] troupo 7 hours ago
A very tangential/orthogonal/left field. It's insane that the only other TV series that managed to consistently pull of this fast pace of walking and talking is ... The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. At least that I can think of.
[–] shagie 6 hours ago
I'll refer you to Sports Night.

https://youtu.be/qYWBBFJKlPM

https://youtu.be/NMcLXG6PXto

Also from Andrew Sorkin...

    • Joshua Malina: Jeremy Goodwin (Sports Night) / Will Bailey (The West Wing)
    • Janel Moloney: Monica (Sports Night) / Donna Moss (The West Wing)
    • Felicity Huffman: Dana Whitaker (Sports Night) / Ann Stark (The West Wing)
    • Clark Gregg: Calvin Trager (Sports Night) / Mike Casper (The West Wing)
    • Timothy Busfield: Director (Sports Night) / Danny Concannon (The West Wing)
[–] opello 4 hours ago
What about ER? I thought that Tommy Schlamme was a big part of the creation of the walk and talk?
[–] rbanffy 5 hours ago
> Competence Porn

Don’t get me started on their engineering that causes a matter-antimatter runaway reaction if their fuel tanks ever lose power. And routing discharge-prone HV power lines behind the bridge consoles, or placing the bridge on the outer hull.

I love it, and I know this is all in the service of the story, but I will not give Starfleet a pass for that kind of irresponsible engineering.

[–] Brendinooo 4 hours ago
There was a bunch of tumblr content awhile back that explored the premise that humans are collectively wild and irresponsible and also tremendously innovative, it's a great head-canon explanation for your gripe. I won't spoil it trying to quote it, just check it out;

https://cheezburger.com/13685509/tumblr-thread-the-staggerin...

[–] outworlder 5 hours ago
Don't forget all the rocks in the bridge.
[–] rbanffy 5 hours ago
It’s all about the story.
[–] runamuck 7 hours ago
Top Gun: Maverick - great class on leading a high performing team.
[–] dcl 6 hours ago
Yes, Jon Hamm's character certainly did get the job done. lol
[–] spauldo 7 hours ago
It's also military fiction, which is important to remember.

Most of the characters in Star Trek are members of the military. So of course, there's a chain of command and orders have to be followed.

The Federation of Planets wasn't a dictatorship.

[–] krapp 7 hours ago
It isn't really military fiction in the sense that it intends to accurately portray or extrapolate on military culture and tactics. Gene Roddenberry was (apparently not) in the Navy, and TOS is mostly The American Cold War In Space (with the Enterprise as a Submarine In Space - looking at you "Balance of Terror" - but it's pretty clear watching TNG onwards that the "military" aspect of the whole thing, like the "post scarcity communism" is window dressing. It's just a necessary part of the franchise.

And they aren't even really members of the military. Starfleet is canonically not a military force, its purpose is exploration, science and diplomacy. It just happens to have a military chain of command, and ships with military designations bristling with planet-cracking weapons. That get into battles and fight wars a lot.

[–] spauldo 5 hours ago
I'm not sure where you're getting the "canonically not a military force" bit. There have been a number of wars in canonical history. Who did the fighting? Starfleet.

I think it's more accurate to say that the Federation of Planets wasn't militaristic, not that they didn't have a military or that Starfleet wasn't their naval equivalent.

And yeah, it's not conventional military fiction which usually revolves around actions during a war. But it's still military fiction in the sense that nearly all the characters are in the military and doing missions for the military. It just happens that the government running that military is at peace most of the time and uses its military for peaceful purposes when it's not actively at war.

[–] R1D3R 6 hours ago
> Gene Roddenberry was in the Navy

No, he wasn’t. He was a B-17 pilot in the Army Air Force.

[–] ChrisMarshallNY 3 hours ago
It's a miracle he survived.

That bunch had the highest mortality rates of any unit (except maybe some of the Japanese units, who were basically suicidal), during the war.

[–] R1D3R 1 hour ago
He survived at least three plane crashes. He crashed on takeoff in a B-17. Two of his crew were killed. He later survived a crash as a passenger. He crashed again as a commercial pilot.

The 8th Air Force suffered heavy losses over Europe but I don't believe Roddenberry served there. He was in the Pacific and after his B-17 crash stayed in the mainland US.

[–] krapp 6 hours ago
Well shit I stand corrected then.
[–] shagie 8 hours ago
Captain Jellico ( https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Edward_Jellico#Captain_... ) provides a counterpoint to the "how Picard runs his ship" (which incidentally had Data installed as the XO over Riker).
[–] outworlder 5 hours ago
He was also a prop device they used to make many changes they had wanted for a while Troy's outfit, the fish tank - Patrick Stewart believed that 24th-century humans—who had evolved past cruelty and the subjugation of life—would not keep a living creature in a glass tank for mere display.
[–] flir 1 hour ago
I thought the fish was still there, based on this dialogue from Q in All Good Things: "The anomaly. My ship. My crew. I suppose you're worried about your fish too."
[–] rpmisms 9 hours ago
Roddenberry had much less to do with TNG, which is why it's better.
[–] hnlmorg 8 hours ago
Much less, but not none at all. Roddenberry refused to budge on his rule that the crew shouldn’t have grievances with one another. That why even scenes shared earlier still end in a positive outcome.

Whereas Voyager, which was written after Roddenberrys passing, leaned heavily into inter-crew disputes.

[–] derefr 8 hours ago
I have to hand it to Roddenberry, though; even though having no infighting produces a somewhat-unrealistic show, I think there's a solid justification to have the rule anyway. It prevented TOS and TNG scripts from being caught in tension between trying to "say something", vs. entertaining the audience with "low" soap-opera drama (of the kind you see increasingly in the later series.)

I have a feeling this might be no small part in why TOS and TNG are the two ST series that contain 90% of the "only comes up once" sci-fi plots / concepts / worldbuilding that people ever make reference to when talking about "things from Star Trek" rather than when talking about Star Trek. TOS and TNG, while definitely soft sci-fi, were to some degree trying to create 22-minute-long works of literary Speculative Fiction, modelled after the sort of things you'd read in serial SF magazines of the 1950s. Later ST series are emphatically not that, and nor do they try to be.

[–] hnlmorg 8 hours ago
Yeah. I’ve heard the writers hated it because they had to work so much harder to create drama.

But as you said, I think it ends up with a higher quality show.

[–] WalterBright 8 hours ago
Some TOS episodes were based on classic scifi stories, like "Voyage of the Space Beagle". Also, Roddenberry employed established scifi authors like David Gerrold to script episodes.

An annoying facet of ST episodes is the morality lessons they push, like on every episode of The Brady Bunch.

[–] opo 1 hour ago
>Also, Roddenberry employed established scifi authors like David Gerrold to script episodes.

While established SF writers wrote episodes for the original series (Harlan Ellison, Theodore Sturgeon, Theodore Sturgeon, Norman Spinrad, etc.), David Gerrold was a recent college graduate and "The Trouble With Tribbles" was his first sale.

[–] hnlmorg 8 hours ago
For me, that’s the best part of the TOS era.

It’s nice to watch something that highlights the best of humanity in a future setting.

Almost everything else in SciFi is dystopian. But ST is a rarity. And it’s all the more beautiful for it.

[–] kstenerud 8 hours ago
I actually found DS9 to be the best of all of them. Aside from the terrible Dr Bashir character, they felt believable, and like any real environment had personality clashes, personal issues, baggage, and of course interpersonal conflicts.

The difference was that rather than turn it into soap opera porn, the characters actually tried to behave professionally (most of the time).

[–] derefr 8 hours ago
Thus "increasingly" :)

• DS9 only had a little soap-opera drama, serving as almost a kind of fanservice sprinkled judiciously into otherwise-thematic B-plots.

• VOY had more, with entire B-plots of episodes now being character-focused, including a few arcs that would have worked just as well if transplanted into some modern-age military drama with no SF elements.

• Drama-as-the-A-plot episodes were appearing by ENT.

(After that I stopped watching, but I've heard the trend has just continued from there.)

[–] 1potato 6 hours ago
Agree. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that they gave Captain Sisko's character -- not to mention Worf, O'Brien and others -- a lot more room to develop and grow.

I really enjoyed TNG as well, and DS9 probably wouldn't have even happened if not for TNG's excellence. I never really felt like the writers gave Picard's character a lot of room to change, though. A lot of the time, he was almost like the sitcom dad who was mainly there to teach the kids a lesson at the end of the episode. That's not a knock on Stewart's acting ability; I'd say he was almost certainly the best actor on the show.

Also agree about Bashir.

[–] yyyk 7 hours ago
TOS and TNG were sci-fi, even if many scripts varied. Given its time, you could have the classic and interesting tech and society questions there, even if they avoided a lot of the implications. But over time the franchise lost this key part, and so it's much worse for the wear. We could use an actually relevant sci-fi series given current tech.
[–] ahazred8ta 6 hours ago
Unfortunately the 1970s ST animated series gave us the 'trapped in the holodeck' story format. The TNG writers leaned a little too heavily on it.
[–] rpmisms 5 hours ago
I think maybe 5 total episodes meet that description.
[–] WalterBright 8 hours ago
I'm not so sure about that. I enjoyed the subtle humor of the illogical Mr Spock, whose logic always came to the wrong conclusion. And McCoy with "dammit Jim I'm a doctor not a bricklayer!"

The best dialog ever:

Lawyer: Mr Spock, I understand you know something about computers?

Spock: I know all about them.

Always makes me laugh.

[–] tmtvl 4 hours ago
Reminds me of that one episode where Mr. Spock figures out there's a problem with the computer because it loses at chess. And he knows it shouldn't lose at chess because he programmed it himself.
[–] randcraw 8 hours ago
And it had a MUCH bigger budget than the original, as well as the assurance that it wouldn't be cancelled at a moment's notice.
[–] WalterBright 8 hours ago
Eh, it's the writing and the characters that make it fly, not the budget. TOS was blessed with some really good writers, and was very lucky with the actors.
[–] msabalau 6 hours ago
We read books to find out who we are. What other people, real or imaginary, do and think and feel... is an essential guide to our understanding of what we ourselves are and may become.

Ursula K. LeGuin

[–] N_Lens 3 hours ago
Unsurprising, then, that Peter Theil found common ground with Mordor & Sauron when reading LOTR.
[–] JojoFatsani 5 hours ago
Apparently by the end of TNG’s run the writers were really struggling since having no interpersonal conflicts (a key tenant laid down by Roddenberry) is pretty bad for character development

DS9 did good in adding a bunch of non star fleet characters who had maybe more realistic motivations. Voyager tried but immediately just turned them all into a big happy family just like TNG.

[–] bpshaver 4 hours ago
All utopias are fictional. Arguably that is definitive of the term as coined by Thomas More.
[–] hydrogen7800 7 hours ago
That's sort of the point of fiction, though, isn't it? Sure, a more complex fiction might be more rewarding, but simple ideals can also be very satisfying and can be grounding too.
[–] WalterBright 7 hours ago
I prefer fiction that is entertaining, rather than preaching the author's vision of morality/politics.
[–] outworlder 5 hours ago
> rather than preaching the author's vision of morality/politics.

It's pretty much impossible to have that. You'll always have the author's worldview shaping the fictional world.

[–] WalterBright 4 hours ago
I don't recall that in War of the Worlds!
[–] tarsierscripter 3 hours ago
HG Wells' politics are plain as day in his stories. He was a pacifist and social Darwinist. The defeat of the Martians by the common cold (after the failure of military action) is 100% on point for him.
[–] entropie 7 hours ago
> The benevolent dictator always makes the right decisions. He's surrounded by his loyal band of perfect lieutenants, who apparently have zero desire to advance, and have no flaws at all.

That's why Orville is my favorite of the newer ST series. It has the high moral standards of the original series, but with characters who are far from perfect, who make mistakes, and who are sometimes even a little weird.

[–] adzm 6 hours ago
Jonathon Frakes / Riker directed two great episodes of the Orville as well
[–] sjdh76 6 hours ago
Have you heard about religion? Its fiction too. Yet it has survived as long aa the chimp troupe has. The human brain generates predictions over different time horizons. When they dont align what is it supposed to do to prevent itself unraveling? It generates fiction. Fiction is how it stays stable.
[–] lopsotronic 7 hours ago
We become what we pretend to be.
[–] otikik 5 hours ago
> surrounded by his loyal band of perfect lieutenants, who apparently have zero desire to advance, and have no flaws at al

Sir, I believe you have not watched it.

[–] WalterBright 4 hours ago
I've seen every episode of TOS, most multiple times.
[–] otikik 4 hours ago
Then you must have had such a good time that you forgot everyone’s flaws!
[–] krapp 6 hours ago
Also keep in mind that part of what makes the utopia work, canonically, is that humans have somehow evolved beyond their vices and bigotry and the fully voluntarist socialist society it portrays just works because everyone is perfectly fine working just for the betterment of humankind or personal intellectual gratification.

In other words it only works because it ignores basic human nature. Which is one reason why Star Trek's utopia isn't really tractable. The others being the technology that completely ignores the laws of physics. Free energy, warp drives and magic boxes that grant wishes.

If people want a science fiction "utopia" I'd say look at Babylon 5. It certainly has its flaws but its Utopia isn't real (because they never are,) it's an ideal that people are always struggling towards.

[–] hax0ron3 5 hours ago
In-universe there was a brutal nuclear war that killed a large number of people. And then after the war they developed technology that got rid of a lot of material scarcity and disease.

I find it somewhat plausible that this could actually lead to something like the show depicts. There is precedent for sweeping moral changes in human history. For example, large parts of the world now find practices like torture, slavery, and collective punishment to be repugnant. Those practices still happen to some extent, but they're not viewed as being just normal like they generally were seen back in the day.

Another example is how Europe and Japan after WW2 genuinely became more pacifistic. Not just as a pretense to fool outsiders, but as a genuine change in how the inhabitants see things.

[–] ahazred8ta 6 hours ago
Apparently there's enough capitalism for mining colonies and merchant traders. "No!! If you shut down the mine we'll go bankrupt!!"
[–] krapp 6 hours ago
I mean, at the end of the day Star Trek is a capitalist product written by capitalists meant to appeal to an audience raised to believe in the absolute moral good of capitalism. Every now and they might sneak in a sly and gentle anti-capitalist criticism (the Ferengi were good for that) but no one actually wants to alienate their audience.
[–] hax0ron3 5 hours ago
I don't think it's quite that capitalist.

Picard says at one point "A lot has changed in three hundred years. People are no longer obsessed with the accumulation of 'things'. We have eliminated hunger, want, the need for possessions."

At another point he says "The acquisition of wealth is no longer the driving force in our lives. We work to better ourselves and the rest of humanity."

To be fair, capitalism is mainly a system of contracts and laws that allow for certain kinds of ownership structures and investments. It does not necessarily have to be done in a way that is obsessed with the accumulation of things or wealth. So those quotes are also not really anti-capitalist. But the quotes are, at least, not friendly to today's common notion of what 'capitalism' means.

[–] krapp 3 hours ago
When I say Star Trek is capitalist I mean the franchise, the product itself. The purpose of Star Trek is to sell merchandise and ad revenue. Or streaming subscriptions. That necessarily affects the kind of stories it can tell. The showrunners don't actually care about the anti-capitalist message, per se, except to the degree that it helps sell the product.
[–] beloch 8 hours ago
TNG should be played 24/7 on every screen in the white house for the next two years.

Picard viewed the power of leadership as, foremost, a responsibility. Every action was careful, deliberate, and well advised. Some later Trek shows (e.g. Voyager) turned captains into geniuses who knew more about everything than all of their underlings. Picard was not an expert in most things and needed his staff to advise him. Once he knew the options and consequences, he shouldered the responsibility of the outcomes, but as a leader of a crew, not a genius with compatible lackeys and minions around him. It was a realistic take on leadership that simply doesn't appear often in television or movies.

Stewart, of course, was not Picard. It's too easy to conflate actors with their roles. However, actors do often help shape their characters, and Stewart's ability to give a thoughtful, diplomatic, and prudent character such incredible power and presence is likely what made Picard possible. The showrunners didn't need to strap a phaser to his thigh and drop him into every away mission to make him compelling because of what Stewart was able to accomplish as an actor sitting behind a desk.

[–] TFNA 7 hours ago
At the same time, TNG did depict Picard as a solitary and isolated figure, whose family relationships had frayed, and it's not hard to view his unusual dedication to his leadership as a way to deal with that emptiness in the rest of his life.
[–] danaris 6 hours ago
I always saw it as the other way around: his family relationships had frayed because he had dedicated his life so completely to Starfleet.
[–] outworlder 5 hours ago
That's exactly it. It wasn't subtle either. He had some people in his past that he's neglected.
[–] Izkata 7 hours ago
> Some later Trek shows (e.g. Voyager) turned captains into geniuses who knew more about everything than all of their underlings.

Not everything. Picard was command track his whole career, I think the same was true for Sisko. But Janeway started as a science officer before switching to command, and Archer was a test pilot. Their experience in those fields would sometimes be useful. It's similar to how Picard's interest in archeology was sometimes useful.

[–] halflife 7 hours ago
Thank you for this. You put my thoughts into words.
[–] whycombilater 7 hours ago
You could play it around those people for 100 years and it would make no difference.

I imagine they'd also conclude Picard is a loser.

[–] platevoltage 6 hours ago
"I like people who weren't captured and assimilated by the Borg"
[–] dpkirchner 6 hours ago
Realistically, he probably shouldn't have been allowed to return as captain after being so uniquely compromised. Keep him in Starfleet, sure, but maybe stick him behind a desk or lectern in San Francisco.
[–] outworlder 5 hours ago
And yet... Earth would have been destroyed had they done that.

The main issue was his PTSD.

[–] krapp 5 hours ago
>And yet... Earth would have been destroyed had they done that.

I don't like the premise that Picard, alone, out of the entirety of the Federation, is the only thing standing between the Borg and the assimilation of Earth. It seems to go against the collectivist identity of the franchise. It's fiction, they could have written it another way, they just didn't because Picard is the star of the show.

And the PTSD isn't even the issue, he was compromised by alien mind control implants from a species far stronger than the Federation, with hostile intent. Implants the Federation couldn't even remove. Implants which have the property of aggressive assimilation. A single nanoprobe is a potential extinction level event.

Humans lose their security clearance by smoking a joint. Being puppeted and mind-controlled by eldritch alien gods into a system-wide genocide should at least lead to a demotion.

And everyone forgets Geordi was tortured and mind-controlled by the Romulans. In anything close to reality he'd never be allowed on a starship again, and Picard would spend the rest of his life quarantined inside a force field getting scanned like that guy in the X Files with the dark matter shadow.

[–] WindyTree 8 hours ago
Who could have done that role but Stewart? Take the guy who played Riker or anyone else in that role and you would have lost the flavor. He will be missed.
[–] hnlmorg 8 hours ago
He wasn’t Gene Roddenberrys first choice. In fact he had to get talked into casting Patrick Stewart by the other execs.

Roddenberry was after someone younger. There’s even a casting show reel of Stewart wearing a toupee and speaking with a very bad French accent.

[–] yomismoaqui 3 hours ago
> ... There’s even a casting show reel of Stewart wearing a toupee and speaking with a very bad French accent.

Lord have mercy

[–] pimeys 8 hours ago
Although Frakes is close to a god in my books as an actor and a director. But never a good captain in TNG, I agree. He's a loved director though, and part of many great Star Trek episodes, and a few good ones for The Orville.
[–] radicalbyte 8 hours ago
Every time I see the current VP of the US I keep thinking back to Riker. And how he's like the anti-universe version of Riker.
[–] pimeys 8 hours ago
Would this evil Riker have a beard then?
[–] hnlmorg 8 hours ago
Amusingly, Riker normally has one but there is an episode of DS9 with Rikers “evil twin” (Thomas the transporter accident) and in that he doesn’t have a goatee.

Basically the reverse of mirror universe meme.

[–] somerandomqaguy 7 hours ago
If we're talking modern day? Edward James Olmos channelling Commander Adama would probably be a very close 2nd if not outstanding on it's own. I could potentially see Scott Glenn pulling it off but that one's a touch iffy IMO.
[–] outworlder 5 hours ago
I can see 'Adama' pulling it off. But it is a different command style.
[–] burnte 2 hours ago
I have always used it as a model for my own leadership and it's worked out extraordinarily well almost always, and has been abused just once. I've had former employees who I've fired who would still work for me again, and I take great pride in treating peole with respect generates results like that. It works.
[–] thwarted 7 hours ago
There's a YouTube channel called "The Art of Storytelling"[0] that had a concentration on Star Trek, specifically TNG, that I've found entertaining and informative. One video covers that episode specifically.

[0] https://youtube.com/@theartofstorytelling1

[–] krunck 6 hours ago
> Really high quality writing for its time.

Really high quality writing.

[–] LeoPanthera 7 hours ago
TNG is a fine example of "competency porn", where everyone knows what they're doing and usually makes the best available choices. In today's world, that's even more compelling than it used to be.
[–] wolvoleo 6 hours ago
It's also because the world in TNG was not centered around amassing the biggest pile of money.

Extrapolate from that and it becomes a easier to make the right decisions.

[–] loeg 6 hours ago
That's just what the writers of the fictional show thought was utopian. It doesn't tell us anything about the real world; it's fiction.
[–] olyjohn 1 hour ago
Star Trek? Fiction? You don't say!
[–] eatonphil 3 hours ago
Like West Wing. Makes it hard to watch. TNG a bit less so, thankfully.
[–] kilroy123 5 hours ago
I mean, it was the flagship starship of the fleet. So yeah, it better be staffed with competent people like that.
[–] olyjohn 1 hour ago
That was what Starfleet was about. People in it were the best of the best. Expectations were high. Academy training was intense.
[–] fouronnes3 9 hours ago
Back when Twitter was good there was an account called "Picard Management Tips" that shared such things and it was really golden.
[–] shezi 9 hours ago
It is now in the fediverse: https://mas.to/@PicardTips
[–] focusedone 9 hours ago
Thank you! Was on my way to search for it.
[–] rapatel0 6 hours ago
Picard was a model of ethics, integrity, and competence especially when the moments are dire and there are no good answers.

Patrick Stewart modeled how a good man should behave and you could tell that he acted from a place of wisdom he understood through experience.

Wonderful contribution to humanity and truly saddened by this loss.

[–] yibg 3 hours ago
Depicted the embodiment of bravery. Fighting when the odds are against you because it’s the right thing to do.
[–] chasil 9 hours ago
I think that I liked him most as Sejanus in I, Claudius. That was before any of his major sci-fi roles.

I see him in this episode:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xA6QbwPGlgk

I've read both Suetonius and Tacitus on the subject of Augustus and the Julio-Claudian dynasty:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julio-Claudian_dynasty

Those who lack this family knowledge would want to start with the first episode of I, Claudius.

[–] SubiculumCode 7 hours ago
I need to watch that again, its been too long (would be my 5th or sixth time, but would be worth it). Is the whole series available there?
[–] chasil 5 hours ago
I think this is the whole set.

I'd also recommend the recent Domina for Livia's perspective.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLlwzDYw6zp2D6DxLR8zGz1i_7...

[–] talon8635 9 hours ago
His episode (the finale of season 1) of Extras is absolutely hilarious. I know he’s not primarily known for comedy, but he’s funny as hell.
[–] alcomatt 8 hours ago
he's done a few comedy stints here and there. He played King Richard The LionHeart in Mel Brooks'es Robin Hood Men in Tights plus he was funny in quite a few STNG episodes and movies. He will be missed. That voice and clear diction.
[–] chasd00 8 hours ago
He voiced Stan's boss at the CIA in American Dad. That character wouldn't be as near as funny without Patrick Stewart's competent and authoritative tone of voice.
[–] exogenousdata 9 hours ago
Sir Patrick Stewart was hilarious when he wanted to be!

https://youtu.be/yZ3ityRPQp8

[–] srean 7 hours ago
Then there was that circumcision disagreement.
[–] halflife 8 hours ago
Almost every episode of extras is awesome, but of course Patrick Stewart is just perfect for that show.
[–] reddalo 7 hours ago
I love Extras and I wish there were more episodes. It's a small gem of a series.
[–] maqp 9 hours ago
Also his guest appearance as Alistair Burke in Frasier episode The Doctor is Out (S11E3) is nothing short of hilarious.

The episode is classic sitcom "wrong conclusion escalates out of hands" so I highly recommend watching it in full instead of the clips but if it's not on your streaming platform, Stewart's scenes are cut together in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LDnGJcDglw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhGQgbXWo4I

[–] eldenbishop 7 hours ago
Damn. You nailed it with your epilogue. Some actors you respect, some you like, but I love him too. I really do, never met him, but he's important to me and was a father figure for many years of my life and while I am not part of his family, he is part of mine.
[–] scelerat 8 hours ago
"Competence porn," something I only heard relatively recently, is a great way to describe a significant component of my love for Star Trek. TNG was the top of the heap for that, and Patrick Stewart's Picard embodied it.
[–] nickjj 8 hours ago
I only watched TNG end to end a few years ago and it was one of the best series I've seen on so many levels.

Ever since I watched it, I half jokingly suggested that it should be a mandatory watch before you're allowed to join the workforce.

[–] RandyRanderson 2 hours ago
I learnt the facts of life ... from watching The Facts of Life
[–] razodactyl 6 hours ago
This comment reminds me of General Hammond from Stargate - it's refreshing when characters are written for competence and especially funny when they just do what a normal person would do.

Not to say they're comparable - both characters and actors are much loved.

[–] jasomill 7 hours ago
This perfectly describes his performance as a lecherous version of himself in Ricky Gervais' and Stephen Merchant's Extras:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za-y7mXqECE&t=174s

[–] matwood 8 hours ago
TNG is the Star Trek I grew up with. I rewatch the entire series every so often and it’s always good.
[–] jibalt 6 hours ago
Not to take anything away from his acting, but Patrick Stewart was not the author of his dialogue in TNG.
[–] savalione 8 hours ago
I didn't know that Patrick Stewart was the voice of Avery Bullock. Such an essential voice for the whole show. His voice will be missed.
[–] AdrianB1 6 hours ago
As much as I like Patrick Stewart, the actor, I must remember that Captain Picard was a role in a script someone else wrote. Picard's management style is what you admire, not the actor's personal management style.

I have the same attitude with House MD lead actor Hugh Laurie: the actor played the role greatly, but the actor was not the fictional person of the role.

[–] lo_zamoyski 9 hours ago
Leadership is service, not dominance. Today, some people throw around terms like "servant leadership" as if this is something new, as if something like the New Testament had never been compiled.
[–] layoric 8 hours ago
Sadly the explicitness was needed cause it ceased being the default..
[–] antonvs 8 hours ago
The problem is that to convince people to take the trouble to lead - or perhaps I should say “manage” - you need incentives. Money is one, but organizationally-backed dominance is irresistible for many people.
[–] whycome 8 hours ago
> the way he takes a role both so seriously and ridiculously makes him so fantastically hilarious.

Don't forget he voiced the Poop emoji in that movie. If only we could tell his younger, Shakespeare-acting, self.

[–] watwut 7 hours ago
Babylon 5 is equal or even better for that. More leadership styles, some more flawed, but ultimately showing various ways to be emphatetic while assertive.
[–] holoduke 7 hours ago
Ah yes. Till you have to manage a real group of individuals with mixed qualities.