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points by reliabilityguy 1 day ago | 0 comments
Not only rich people affect outcomes of the elections or legislature, unions do as well.

For example, New York’s Health Act failed because teachers unions opposed it on the grounds of “protecting the hard fought contract benefits”. In other words, union leadership realized that with this bill becoming a law unions would be less needed, so they fought for their interests while disregarding interests of others.

So, unions should go as well?

[–] Tryk 1 day ago
Unions represent the interest of a large group of people, they arrive at policy through debate and consensus.

Allowing people to nominate representatives to argue policy is the foundation of representative democracy.

[–] reliabilityguy 1 day ago
> Unions represent the interest of a large group of people, they arrive at policy through debate and consensus.

Well, in this case, how come preventing access to healthcare to NYS residents is in the interest of the teachers? And, why would teachers think that they are the only ones who deserve good health care?

Unless… the unions have no feedback mechanism to ensure that they operate the way you think they operate, and they do what any other politician does — they want to stay in power I exchange for keeping just enough of the voting base like you more than the next guy. So, in this case, it’s perfectly reasonable for a union leadership to fight this law — it simply a preservation of power thing.

[–] Tryk 1 day ago
>Well, in this case, how come preventing access to healthcare to NYS residents is in the interest of the teachers? And, why would teachers think that they are the only ones who deserve good health care?

I am not familiar with the particulars, but I am sure there is information published by the union explaining their position in more detail.

I reject your suggestion that I am ignorant how unions operate. I have been a member of a union for many years. Larger decisions are decided by voting.

Like democracy, unions are not perfect. But historically unions have been effective at negotiating rights for workers (weekends, 8hour workdays etc.)

I would argue they are one of the few ways labour has been able to impact policy and law.

[–] reliabilityguy 1 day ago
> I reject your suggestion that I am ignorant how unions operate. I have been a member of a union for many years.

I was a member of a union as well.

> Larger decisions are decided by voting.

After they went through the filter of the leadership, either via the “bargaining committee” or any other form of delegation, selection to which can be based on votes or appointments.

You can Google yourself how teacher unions opposed NYS health care bill, and why they deemed it necessary to justify their position with “protecting the fought for benefits” among other things.

[–] lovich 1 day ago
No, they are single individuals who have more speech than me via dollars. They are groups of people. I may have problems with particular unions or particular actions but they’re a million times better than a single illegal immigrant being able to manipulate politics on his own whims.
[–] reliabilityguy 1 day ago
You have this view, and it’s your right.

I care about outcomes, and I do not give unions any more slack or good will just because they are “troops of people”. They do shitty things too, and the results are bad for everyone involved. So, what’s the difference? There is none.

[–] lovich 1 day ago
Yea, I actually believe a bunch of people agreeing with an action has a difference in quality vs one oligarch or king getting to unilaterally decide.

They may end up doing shitty things but the group has buy in from a lot more people than one asshole deciding how we get to live our life.

[–] reliabilityguy 1 day ago
>Yea, I actually believe a bunch of people agreeing with an action has a difference in quality vs one oligarch or king getting to unilaterally decide.

This is a false dichotomy.

> They may end up doing shitty things but the group has buy in from a lot more people than one asshole deciding how we get to live our life.

Well, a group of teachers in a union decided for the whole state that they (the teachers) deserve health insurance more than the rest of the state.

I understand that for some people it's fine because their team wins. I am not one of those, I am for outcomes that benefit the most, and not select few that managed to sway power just because they are teachers.

[–] lovich 1 day ago
> > Yea, I actually believe a bunch of people agreeing with an action has a difference in quality vs one oligarch or king getting to unilaterally decide.

> This is a false dichotomy.

no, its my fucking opinion. I didnt say it was fact. You see the word "believe" in that text?

[–] reliabilityguy 1 day ago
I don’t need to see a word believe. Beliefs are not based on rational arguments, and your arguments are irrational, so no need to use specific words, I can infer from between the lines.