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points by 10111001 3 days ago | 0 comments
> The opening premise baffles me. What kind of illusion must one be under to believe that employers would ever pay you the same amount of money to do less work?

It seems like a pretty common misunderstanding in rank-and-file AI-boosterism. I'm guessing that reflects their initial experience, before their employer adjusts their expectations, extrapolated out to infinity. Your correct understanding makes AI sound like a bad deal for workers (and it is), so my theory AI-enthusiastic boosters have to engage in a degree of reality distortion to keep up their enthusiasm.

[–] jerf 3 days ago
On the plus side for us worker bees, this is why I never really bought in to the narrative that our jobs were inevitably doomed. A question I've posed a few times: Consider two reasonably similar competitors with 100 engineers two years ago. Suppose AI really does accelerate development 10x times. It doesn't (at least not yet) but the larger number helps bring the question into focus. One company fires 90 engineers and does the same work with the remaining 10. The other company keeps all its engineers and does 10 times the work.

Who wins in the market?

It's not a uniform answer. There are times and places where the first one wins, as well as a mixed strategy. But I think broadly speaking the majority answer is the second.

[–] coldtea 3 days ago
>On the plus side for us worker bees, this is why I never really bought in to the narrative that our jobs were inevitably doomed. A question I've posed a few times: Consider two reasonably similar competitors with 100 engineers two years ago. Suppose AI really does accelerate development 10x times. It doesn't (at least not yet) but the larger number helps bring the question into focus. One company fires 90 engineers and does the same work with the remaining 10. The other company keeps all its engineers and does 10 times the work. Who wins in the market?

The one who understands that "10 times the work" is not necessarily absorbable by the market, and adjust to whatever lesser value still works, and still fires a lot of the 100.

[–] Buttons840 3 days ago
A lot of the fired then make a Discord and casually replicate the company's product.

That's how it will eventually pan out, but I guess the company gets a bag before the collapse.

[–] coldtea 3 days ago
>A lot of the fired then make a Discord and casually replicate the company's product.

And they find out replicating the product means little, it's the customer base, industry reputations, connections, support, ecosystem, and stuff, that matter.

[–] GuB-42 3 days ago
Companies that conduct these layoffs don't just lay off developers. The tend to also lay off support, sales, legal, etc... Especially support, a chatbot is all you need right?

And that's how that "layoff Discord" can produce something that can matter to customers. It will be a smaller company, and small companies have a serious advantage when it comes to support: you can get an actual human, maybe even the main dev, he can actually do things rather than transferring you from chatbot to bureaucracy. It doesn't scale, but it may be enough to get a competitor started.

As for connections, you may have inadvertently let go of the guy who has the connections. And you may have fired a perfectly functional team, ready for from clever entrepreneur with connections (who may be one of the fired) to pick up. It is so much of a recognized problem that some big companies hire people just so that their competitors can't have them.

[–] fzeroracer 2 days ago
Who is going to fund these smaller companies? Why do you think this isn't happening right now as we speak? Where are these companies made from these layoff discords in the past two or so years?
[–] GuB-42 2 days ago
What makes you think it is not happening right now? Startups have to come from somewhere, and they don't have to say how they got together, in fact, it would be smart for them to keep that "layoff discord" hidden if it can keep the lawyers attention away.

And we here stories of "guy left big company to make his own startup" all the times. It is a common story for indie video game devs for instance.

[–] dvfjsdhgfv 2 days ago
I know a few, but they don't advertise as "we were laid off so...", it would be incredibly stupid I think.
[–] geodel 2 days ago
> some big companies hire people just so that their competitors can't have them.

True. Also true that this was ZIRP phenomenon predominantly in big tech. And once mass layoffs started in big tech most of those ultra elite engineers/staff either retired or took job at lower pay instead of launching competitors to big tech.

[–] nilamo 3 days ago
And then the business learns how many of their customers were only there because of the sales rep, and jump ship to go to whatever vibe coded app the sales rep makes to specifically handle their "unique" environment.
[–] nostrademons 3 days ago
I wonder if what we'll see instead is smaller startups replicating whole consumer value chains and replacing the whole industry at once.

On the B2B level, business is basically relationships, because you want to have a person that you trust who you can go to with any concerns about your multimillion-$ relationship. The relationships are the hard part, which is why the biggest department in any enterprise startup is sales, and requests from the salespeople usually dominate the feature roadmap.

But on a consumer level, most companies invest precisely zero in relationships, because it is far too expensive to build a relationship with 300M consumers who each pay you $50/year. The parts that matter are a.) building a brand image b.) delivering a "good enough" product and c.) doing it cheaply.

AI does extremely well at all 3 of those. It's great at generating fictitious but plausible-sounding content that makes you feel great about yourself. It's a passable approximation at explaining how things are made, enough that a small organization could probably deliver a good-enough product. And it replaces all of those pesky humans that require HR departments and legal employment contracts and sales relationships and customer service. A significant portion of the work in any industry is simply greasing the supply chain, making all those transactions that need to happen along the way happen. Vertically integrate and automate those and you could probably rebuild the industry in a much cheaper, more efficient way.

I think many people are thinking too small with AI, on the level of "how will this help me do a task?" or "how will this help my job?" or "how will this help improve my company by getting rid of jobs?" The real money is in "how will this revolutionize the industry by getting rid of all the other companies?" or even "how will this replace society so there is a fair playing field for new industries to get started?"

[–] hackyhacky 3 days ago
Wait, you mean my vibecoded Facebook ripoff won't make me a billionaire like Zuck? Bummer.
[–] geodel 2 days ago
It might. Have you translated all PHP to Rust via AI over a weekend. That would be key to beat Facebook in its own game.
[–] hackyhacky 2 days ago
No, I translated it to Haskell, with a custom container runtime.
[–] hobo123 2 days ago
Well, people were asking to build just that for about $100 on Upwork, so it can't be worth billions :D
[–] Grombobulous 3 days ago
This is why recessions often lead to a burst in new companies being founded.

One of the experiences that stuck with my in my early career was when my coworkers heard talk of layoffs at their startup that was acquired by bigcorp, one of the first reactions was “maybe we should just do another startup.”

I was taken aback at how casually that idea was thrown around. They didn’t even have a specific idea, just the casual thought that they could just start another company.

[–] coldtea 3 days ago
>I was taken aback at how casually that idea was thrown around. They didn’t even have a specific idea, just the casual thought that they could just start another company.

That's how a lot of companies are made, even huge ones. Not everything comes from a specific focus, it's just "let's see what works to build a business that can make us money".

[–] pseudalopex 3 days ago
Many companies started with a general idea or a different specific idea. What huge companies started with no idea?
[–] Viliam1234 2 days ago
Some companies start with a temporary idea and later pivot to a new one.

For example, I know a few companies which at the beginning were just body shops, but the long-term plan was to develop their own projects after they figure out what exactly their customers need most.

[–] Buttons840 3 days ago
"MegaCorp clearly wants to buy out any competition, so we should just leave and build the same thing again."

And now you don't even have to use specialist knowledge, just describe the idea to AI and AI will implement it clean-room.

[–] abanana 3 days ago
It's the VC/Silicon Valley mindset. They want to be able to call themselves "entrepreneurs" and "founders"; the product has little importance compared to that. It goes some way to explaining why the vast majority fail.
[–] Grombobulous 3 days ago
They were engineers, to be clear. I didn’t detect any of the vibes you are assuming were in the room.

It was more like “we could just build something.”

[–] 10111001 3 days ago
> A lot of the fired then make a Discord and casually replicate the company's product.

And what's going to be the result of that? Can the market really support that many competitors comfortably, and/or are you setting yourself up for business failure or Chinese-style involution and 996?

See, I want a comfortable happy life, not a stress-filled one of maximum market efficiency. AI + capitalism doesn't look like it's going to provide the former.

[–] Viliam1234 2 days ago
I could imagine that someone's plan could be like this: "Our current company has more managers than developers, and the software development is very ineffective because we spend a lot of time in meetings, doing various bureaucracy, and changing things over and over again, because the managers insist on making technical decisions, etc. We could do the same thing with a fraction of the workforce, and also work from home instead of renting an expensive place in the middle of an expensive city. Then our product could be cheaper and we would could still work less and have higher salaries."

Whether this is realistic or not, I can imagine some people actually believing it.

[–] Buttons840 3 days ago
The market can't support it. The value of software will trend towards zero.

The less society spends on developers, the less valuable software is. If the day comes that we employ zero developers, then software will be worth zero dollars.

And yet, software will still be fulfilling an essential part of society, it just wont be a thing people are willing to pay for. So AI will still be around, and will still be essential (because somehow we have to maintain all this software), and AI will get better and better.

Eventually any knowledge work will be worth zero. Including the C-suite--especially the c-suite!

[–] samudrijan 3 days ago
There’s a flaw in your logic. The value of software doesn’t derive from how much you spend on developers. It’s a function of what customers are willing to pay for the service/product.

If there is no market fit, 100 man-years is worth $0.

On the other hand, if 10K customers are willing to pay $15/month for a tool that took 30 man-months to build you have a handy $150K/month revenue stream.

[–] Buttons840 3 days ago
If the service/product requires zero developers to create, then why wouldn't customers just use one of the 10,000 clones that are free?
[–] 10111001 3 days ago
> Eventually any knowledge work will be worth zero. Including the C-suite--especially the c-suite!

1. I don't think the "c-suite" is knowledge work.

2. If "any knowledge work will be worth zero" what will workers do? Manual labor? That's a horrible regression.

3. I think the direction AI is taking us is world where the only thing that will be worth anything is ownership (basically being rich), and you either own stuff or you don't. And all the ladders to get from no ownership to ownership will be pulled up.

[–] filoeleven 2 days ago
I, for one, enjoy my free water and electricity, which are all free because they're an essential part of society.
[–] solyin 3 days ago
Except, they're the ones holding the money. So they can farm their job off to an ai and retire to their yachts.
[–] toyg 3 days ago
No, what they will do is redefine (again) what is worth paying money for.

We don't need to buy movies, eat avocado, drink wine, wear new clothes, drive shiny cars, etc. We do it because we have been conditioned, over the centuries, to desire what rich people would want. Every time something becomes cheap (e.g. having a watch), capital owners simply redefine it so that it can be sold again as expensive (e.g. having a luxury watch).

[–] techpression 3 days ago
This... It's weird how companies and people think adding something is the same as adding value. Feature creep was an issue even before AI, now we see one worse feature being added after the next (does anyone even know all the touch controls of iOS or even macOS, as an example), with some expectation of that there will be money coming in because of it.

I benefit greatly from AI myself, but I use it to augment my capabilities, not as a slot machine for building things nobody will ever use, which seems to be the norm based on the products I use.

[–] pvab3 2 days ago
it completely depends on the elasticity and shape of the supply and demand curves. Some will choose to reduce headcount, some will choose to build more. Depends on the business and the nature of the industry.
[–] SoftTalker 3 days ago
10x the work requires exponentially more communication and coordination. At least according to Brooks "Mythical Man-Month" thesis. There's more to creating a marketable product than churning out code. I'm not aware that AI really changes this.
[–] sbarre 3 days ago
Make it 2x then. For most companies, doubling their output (either with more features or half the time for existing ones) is still a massive win.
[–] solaire_oa 2 days ago
I think this is a better analogy, particularly because it illustrates that the more demanding company might not need to be 10x more efficient. A company that opts to to be lighter/cheaper may lose to the competitor regardless, especially in winner-take-all or discerning markets. Maybe not always, and we're obviously speaking theoretically, but it's an interesting thought.
[–] neutronicus 3 days ago
The one who fires 90 engineers, just to see how things go with the 10, and then scales back up with cheaper off-shore talent if they can't keep up with demand.
[–] SoftTalker 3 days ago
Yes, that has always worked well.
[–] johnvanommen 3 days ago
Ah I see we have worked at the same company

\S

[–] hattmall 3 days ago
Most non-commoditized reasonable paying jobs are a product of information asymmetry. Anything that shrinks that asymmetrical surface is a threat to jobs. The company you are missing is the one that fires 99 of their engineers, hires 200 generally lower performing but far cheaper engineers and uses AI to accelerate their output.

Now whether or not that would actually work given the reality of the AI output is a question, but that's the general premise.

[–] asdff 3 days ago
There is an assumption being made that more engineering leads to more company growth. It just isn’t true though. Sales sure. But doubling the engineering floor does not double sales. You can sell a bug filled product with an unbuilt roadmap still.
[–] ramblerman 2 days ago
I agree it's not a uniform answer, but disagree that the majority is the second.

Imo the vast majority of companies would be better with a lot less engineers. For the simple fact that they are not setup for producing that much work.

They need time to discuss, decide what they even want to accomplish, just letting your POs throw more features at all your products on a whim is hugely detrimental.

[–] mancerayder 2 days ago
There's just one small problem. The AI costs money, and the premise is AI is cheaper than people. If you augment your 100 engineers with AI, they'll cost what, 10% more? That's +10 percent to your cost center, and would be considered very bad. There are tons of tools that make us more productive - think about it, how many of them did we have to beg demand or leave for? You assume they care to maximize productivity, which is your first mistake.
[–] sokoloff 3 days ago
I suspect the one who fires 80, does twice as much, and (maybe optionally) pays the 20 125% (as if they were 25) probably handily beats them both.
[–] Viliam1234 2 days ago
Optionally, because after the 80 are fired, the remaining 20 will think twice before asking for a raise.
[–] anonzzzies 3 days ago
I don’t think anyone has figured how to do 10x the work yet as we don’t know what the work is. AI cannot (yet) define the work that needs to be done, for some definition of needs to be done, and we need humans to figure that out for now. Us humans cannot work fast enough so we still build the same stuff but with less people.
[–] robotresearcher 3 days ago
Overall US economic productivity has gone up about 6X in 75 years, which included computers and the internet. So we absorb these things, but gradually.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/OPHNFB

[–] amanaplanacanal 3 days ago
Looking at that graph is very interesting. There is no obvious point where the microcomputer or the Internet made any major difference.

For that matter if we want to talk about percentage increases that should be a log scale. Productivity improvements appear to be slowing down.

[–] rootusrootus 2 days ago
> There is no obvious point where the microcomputer or the Internet made any major difference

I think it lags. There was a sag between the mid-70s and mid-90s, which is when computers and the Internet were being rapidly developed but weren't really hitting the business mainstream. But late 90s through today it clearly ramped up a lot -- my bet is this is because of IT. It just takes a long time, it's not a sharp jump because not every business gets on board immediately and productively.

My guess is AI ends up the same. But then again, I'm not an economist, only a developer, so I just think I can tell anything about that productivity graph.

[–] johnvanommen 3 days ago
Possibly the most interesting lesson from your graph is that the trillions in stimulus during Covid caused productivity to CRATER.

I noticed this anecdotally; in 2021 it was especially noticeable that people were just phoning it in at work, and “quiet quitting” was a meme.

[–] rootusrootus 3 days ago
Are we looking at the same graph? What I see is that there was a huge spike at the onset of COVID, and then it flatlined and even corrected a bit, and in the end seems to have resumed the same trajectory it had before COVID.

If I understand correctly, the spike in 2020 was not any kind of jump in real productivity, either, it is an artifact of how the calculation is made -- there was a sudden drop in hours from low paid workers who typically have a lower than average contribution to productivity (as measured), so laying a bunch of them off skews the per-hour calculation. Then as things settled down companies re-hired, and then over-hired.

[–] thwarted 2 days ago
White collar work may have been phoning it in (literally and figuratively), but the drop is probably more likely due to "Labor Productivity (Output per Hour)" being measured using revenue from things like the social, entertainment, and travel industries taking a hit in customer spend (an empty restaurant has less output per hour than a busy restaurant, for example). It's not clear to me from that page/graph alone that an increase in stimulus spending is a cause, vs a correlation, for the drop.
[–] HDThoreaun 2 days ago
The covid productivity spike is because all the low productivity retail workers got laid off. Then as they came back to work productivity went back down
[–] 0c3ca83 3 days ago
Consider two reasonably similar competitors with 100 horses two years ago. Suppose AI really does accelerate development 10x times. One company fires 90 horses and buys 10 cars. The other company keeps all its horses.

Do the horses win in the market?

[–] paimapi 3 days ago
Right. People don't understand the difference between labor and value. The job of a corporation is to extract as much surplus value from its workers as possible while making it as opaque as possible to individual workers the actual revenue they bring in.

It's very normal to think that the extra revenue growth you bring in should mean you have either 1) a larger share of the pie for every efficiency increase that grows revenue or 2) less expectation from you, as a worker, to labor as intensively since you are continuing to bring in surplus value that is being actively skimmed from.

[–] coldtea 3 days ago
>It's very normal to think that the extra revenue growth you bring in should mean you have either 1) a larger share of the pie for every efficiency increase that grows revenue or 2) less expectation from you, as a worker, to labor as intensively since you are continue to bring in surplus value that is being actively skimmed from.

It's also very normal to force businesses by law to either or both. But it's not happening these days.

[–] singpolyma3 3 days ago
By law or by collective bargaining
[–] oblio 3 days ago
That's what happens when people think the government should be run like a business.
[–] paimapi 3 days ago
Arguably, I would say this has been a 50+ year-long project starting in the Reagan/Thatcher era that Clinton/Blair fully realized by ushering in de-regulatory, labor-disempowering neoliberal policies as part of the left political flank. There's been a lot written about this:

https://jacobin.com/2026/09/labour-callaghan-neoliberalism-m...

https://dissentmagazine.org/article/the-legacy-of-the-clinto...

https://sk.sagepub.com/hnbk/edvol/the-sage-handbook-of-neoli...

[–] graemep 3 days ago
I dislike the phrase neoliberal (its badly defined). I would argue that Blair (and Brown and Cameron etc.) was a lot worse than Thatcher because Thatcher did want competitive markets, whereas more recently its just been "business friendly" which is quite the opposite.
[–] oceanplexian 3 days ago
Whenever I read comments like these I feel like people are living in a completely different reality.

Most of the tech companies I have worked at are ridiculously easy and generous, I get to work with smart people, and the entire job can be done in a few hours per week. It's not like we're doing manual labor and digging ditches; half the people on this website are laptop-class workers who occasionally use the slightest bit of energy to write a few lines of code or participate in a meeting.

I show up to work and I often do extra because I like it.

The company isn't "extracting" anything from me except the extremely consentual labor I want to give back simply out of the love of the game. If you don't feel that way, the problem isn't the capitalist system it's probably your own life choices.

[–] robotresearcher 3 days ago
You’re reading negative valence in technical language that doesn’t mean it. ‘Extraction’ and ‘labor’ aren’t bad, they are technically descriptive. You extract fun and cuteness value from puppies and LeBron labors at basketball. Not an unhappy process in itself, though of course abusive versions exist.

That’s why your happy experience is not inconsistent with this description.

[–] halfmatthalfcat 3 days ago
I completely agree and I think smart companies also understand this. There is still a lot of leverage employees have, especially in tech. Tech as "adult daycare" isn't a meme for no reason.
[–] snapcaster 3 days ago
None of this changes the facts of the comment you're responding to. Every business must extract surplus value from their employee's work to be profitable. Nobody said every business has to be miserable, or not mask this extraction in fluffy terms. Doesn't mean it isn't happening though
[–] singpolyma3 3 days ago
And yet even while you indolently phone it in, if you're any good they make a lot more off you than they pay you.
[–] flavionm 3 days ago
Would he realistically be able to make as much as they make out of him by himself? While working the same amount?

It's debatable whether he would even make as much as he gets paid currently, in that scenario.

[–] meheleventyone 2 days ago
The correct comparison isn’t him working by himself but with a similar sized cohort where distribution of revenue was fairer. Co-ops are a thing as are the productivity benefits of working with others.

Even if you don’t like the concept of co-ops it’s fairly easy to ask yourself if you would you be more or less motivated if you shared more in the success of a company rather than it being sucked up by shareholders?

[–] red_candle_wax 3 days ago
> Would he realistically be able to make as much as they make out of him by himself? While working the same amount?

According to AI boosters he should be able to make magnitude more now

[–] rtp4me 3 days ago
How else would they stay in business if they did not make money off your skill/services? Unless you are a non-profit, why would you hire people just to break even or lose money?
[–] singpolyma3 2 days ago
Break even is staying is business :)

And you do it to provide the product/service, provide for your workers, etc

[–] hobo123 2 days ago
In my experience, companies make money despite employing some people, not because they employ those people.
[–] paimapi 2 days ago
You think a company can exist with just executive leadership?

Would love to see just one example of a billion+ valuation company with nothing but C-suite and that against the ratio of companies with 1000+ employees who are worth a billion+. The only two sub-dozen workers that come to mind for me are Theranos and Bernie Madoff and I'm not sure they are examples of success.

[–] hobo123 2 days ago
No, they need good workers. IME some people are a net drain and only slow others down without much positive contribution. Sadly.
[–] singpolyma3 2 days ago
Yes this is true of some of course. But if it were true of all nothing would happen
[–] chasd00 3 days ago
I think the 80/20 rule applies to employees correct?. 20% of employees actually do the work that is making money. So for every 8 sitting around doing nearly nothing there's 2 that are actually directly related to revenue.
[–] xg15 3 days ago
At this point I wonder if those aren't simply marketing shills or the usual kind of "pro-business" press articles that always push ridiculously optimistic takes on new technologies.

Reminds me of the old press pieces along "with the new machines, the workers won't have to do this tedious and dangerous work anymore and will have so much more free time!"

And free time they had...

[–] bluGill 3 days ago
What is missed is free time is just one good you can get. People like different "things". Sometimes that "thing" is free time. Sometimes that thing is more expensive food. Sometimes that thing is a bigger house. Sometimes that thing is... There are a lot of options. If you were willing to live like 1950 you could have the male working 20 hours a week and the female never leaving the home. What people forget is in 1950 having a black and white TV was unusual (though not uncommon) and color TV was still several years away. Your phone was a shared party line. You had one car which wasn't reliable by modern standards.
[–] xg15 2 days ago
I think in this case, it was rather cynical. The "free time" the workers got was because they were unemployed. The workers who were still employed of course had no additional leisure time, the added productivity went to the employer.
[–] autoexec 2 days ago
> If you were willing to live like 1950 you could have the male working 20 hours a week and the female never leaving the home. What people forget is in 1950 having a black and white TV was unusual (though not uncommon) and color TV was still several years away. Your phone was a shared party line. You had one car which wasn't reliable by modern standards.

Another way of looking at that is you could own a home and a modern car, and support your entire family and have the latest technology all on a single income.

TV wasn't worth having in 1950 for most people, if they even got reception at all, but by 1955 75% of homes had state of the art TVs. Phones improved over the decade as well, and pretty much everyone had at least one in their home (technically owned by AT&T). What people had seems primitive to us, but it was all new and constantly improving to the people at the time.

Today our experience causes us to expect that greed and enshittification will make everything both worse and more expensive, but back then people were excited about the future and about how technology would make their lives better while getting cheaper because that was their experience.

[–] lelanthran 3 days ago
Pretty large distortion, in the case of this blogger.

He produces much more shareholder value.

He works much more harder.

He is much more tired.

Exactly why does he think this is a good deal for him? Because he's VP of blah?

The whole AI-boosterism is from people convinced that if only they can maximise shareholder value, their lot in life would improve.

[–] steveBK123 3 days ago
It speaks to a lack of understanding of the economy as a complex adaptive system.

Same idea with all these agents that are going to negotiate our insurance down, haggle with our cell phone providers, and find the best hotel deals.

Your counterparty will have its own agent, a larger budget for that agent, and a lot more skin in the game to ensure they retain their advantage (cell phone bills are 100% of the cell companies income but is only 0.5% of your spending). Good luck.

[–] Ekaros 3 days ago
Cell phone provider is funny one here. Effectively most efficient thing to do is to get a deal from competitor and then accept winback offer from them. You can not even properly negotiate for deals very often but somehow those winbacks end up being near best deals. Last time I got negative deal for them. Meaning my mobile and wired internet ended up less than wired internet was before...
[–] petesergeant 3 days ago
> Your counterparty will have its own agent, a larger budget for that agent, and a lot more skin in the game to ensure they retain their advantage

I did some work on negotiating agents. This doesn’t have to be a zero sum game. If you can craft a per-user package effectively (for many services) then both sides end up with a better deal, and competition in the market stops the provider entity from dictating terms.

[–] steveBK123 2 days ago
A lot of systems are either adversarial or the v0 agents are relying on a sort of free rider / human good will that won't scale when 100M people have agent bots.

Apples iPhone call answering for unknown numbers was OK until all the overseas robocallers made their robot respond somewhat conversationally and hang on the line so that it vaguely looks like a real enough call. I can still tell its a robot since I am not senile yet, but I still have all the notifications about the call/transcription/voicemail/etc to tap.

People deploying agents to call restaurants for reservations works for like the first 10 calls that restaurant gets and now they are going to hang up on everyone's bots. Many websites already blocking agents. Some websites where agents were scraping for reservations/inventory are outright locking peoples accounts. Etc.

https://www.businessinsider.com/resy-suspends-vcs-account-ai...

https://www.cnbc.com/2026/10/13/jpmorgan-ai-agents-account-a...

https://finance.yahoo.com/technology/ai/articles/metas-muse-...

[–] Aurornis 3 days ago
Honest question: Where does the “AI booster” phrase come from? I only ever see it in online comment sections where certain people use it as a pejorative like this and everyone who uses it puts forth very similar ideas. Is this catchphrase something that comes out of a certain online community, political circle, or influencer?
[–] paimapi 3 days ago
[–] Aurornis 3 days ago
I’m asking where it came from.

I know you can find it if you Google it, but that’s my point: It’s the shibboleth that these people use to signal their alignment with an ideology, and it’s all the same thing.

I could have told you what those articles would have said before I began reading them because “AI booster” is a phrase associated with a very specific worldview. It gets dressed up prose about superiority and condescension for the “boosters” but it’s always the same thing.

It’s like many of the academic phrases that develop to signal alignment with an ideology and separate the insiders from the outsiders.

[–] paimapi 3 days ago
This is pedantic but that's not proper usage of 'shibboleth.' The basic conceit of an 'AI booster' is easily defined by the word 'booster' itself - it's someone who 'boosts' AI, likely without much actual subject matter expertise on the matter and the word 'booster' has a long etymology applied to various ideas: https://www.etymonline.com/word/booster

When most theorists talk about shibboleths and impenetrable academic writing, it's in reference to terms like 'deterritorialization' or 'intertextuality' which are not immediately evident to most lay people who aren't armed with an etymological background or who once stumbled into an advanced course on literary theory in pursuit of a creative writing degree

You could probably say that there's cultural capital associated with it but that's true of nearly any term describing an ideology or opinion. The very same AI boosters are guilty of coining things like 'orthogonality' or 'instrumentally convergent subgoals' which lean more towards being unnecessarily bombastic than descriptive (I guess 'intelligent but amoral' and 'self-preservation' aren't fancy enough for adoption) which loses the strongest argument for academic jargon like the one advanced by Butler: https://web.archive.org/web/20240630040227/https://www.nytim...

[–] user43928 3 days ago
To me it seems like a term that users pessimistic about AI and the future apply to those with an optimistic opinion.

By speaking of boosting, they add an implication that the opinion isn't as genuine as their own and is perhaps motivated by some sort of financial benefit.

Am I wrong?

[–] oblio 3 days ago
Do you believe than an industry that's investing 1 trillion per year in infrastructure, isn't also investing tens of billions in marketing, including pseudo-grassroots movements aka astro turfing? They would be total idiots not to, and they're not.
[–] user43928 3 days ago
I've seen Moonshot pay creators on X for posting promotional messaging about Kimi K3.1 Pro, with the requirement not to disclose it as a paid sponsorship.

X then took action and suspended creator's accounts that were posting about Kimi K3.1 without the paid sponsorship tag, allegedly hitting some accounts that weren't paid by Moonshot.

In any case, I do not think that people are typically being paid to promote AI generally, rather than specific products.

To imply so on comments from well established HN users, as if it was unlikely they simply find value in AI and have a genuinely positive opinion, often seems misguided.

[–] Aurornis 3 days ago
The phrase “AI booster” isn’t used to accuse people of astroturfing.

It’s all over this thread as a pejorative for anyone who doesn’t have a cynical view of AI.

[–] pseudalopex 2 days ago
Booster means enthusiastic supporter. Not fake or paid.
[–] user43928 2 days ago
To me it suggests someone with an interest in promoting AI.

I'm an enthusiast when it comes to using AI to my benefit. I could care less about what others do, as long as it does not concern my work.

I think it would be strange if someone were to label me an 'AI booster', but maybe that's just how I feel.

[–] Aurornis 3 days ago
> This is pedantic but that's not proper usage of 'shibboleth.' The basic conceit of an 'AI booster' is easily defined by the word 'booster' itself - it's someone who 'boosts' AI,

It’s a shibboleth because it’s a highly specific phrase used by these people.

The fact that it’s self-explanatory doesn’t take away from that.

It’s a shibboleth in the way it’s used. I see the word “booster” applied more to AI than any other topic because it’s the shibboleth chosen to represent that specific set of ideologies about AI.

[–] 10111001 3 days ago
> It’s a shibboleth in the way it’s used. I see the word “booster” applied more to AI than any other topic because it’s the shibboleth chosen to represent that specific set of ideologies about AI.

It's not a shibboleth because "AI booster" is a fairly straightforward label to describe a group of people with certain characteristic. Which is proven because as I wrote "AI booster" above, mentally I was trying coin a descriptive label rather than use a predefined stock term. Personally, I have no fixed label for that group, and could have just as easily written "AI enthusiast" or "AI promoter."

IIRC, a shibboleth is a characteristic word or pronunciation that gives you away, often without you even realizing it. Understanding that there are people who support AI and others who oppose AI, and trying to refer to those groups, is not that.

[–] Aurornis 3 days ago
> Which is proven because as I wrote "AI booster" above, mentally I was trying coin a descriptive label rather than use a predefined stock term.

AI booster is a common predefined term, not something you coined on the fly.

If you look higher up in this thread, the other arguments are that it’s a common predefined term with wide usage and understanding. You were repeating a phrase that you saw before and associated with a set of ideas.

[–] cassepipe 3 days ago
I feel like you are trying to paint it as a shibboleth because you feel targeted by it or you dislike the ideology of people who use it but it's probably just a banal reaction to the "doomer" adjective that I have heard before it and is even more entrenched

It just makes sense that the bigger the agora in which a debate takes place, the more nuances will fade away until you can roughly sort people into the "X bad" and "X good" buckets. Is it desirable ? I don't know. Is it some group's lobbying/conspiracy ? I don't think so

[–] foobiekr 3 days ago
It’s a common phrasing in English and has nothing to do with any ideology. Booster replaced “cheerleader” for this purpose some time in the mid 2000s.

See also “cryptocurrency booster” for another example.

[–] Aurornis 3 days ago
I understand what it means. That’s not what I’m asking.

“AI booster” appears 100X more often than I ever saw “cryptocurrency booster” and the phrase is always associated with people who have a specific ideology about AI.

[–] foobiekr 2 days ago
You're being paranoid.
[–] amanaplanacanal 3 days ago
I think I saw crypto bro more often, but it seems similar.
[–] Aurornis 2 days ago
Agreed. "Crypto bro" was the selected shibboleth for that movement, just as "AI booster" has become the unifying phrase for this movement.
[–] zem 2 days ago
it's applying the existing idea of "boosterism" to AI proponents. the word wasn't coined for this.