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points by zhivota 3 days ago | 0 comments
Unregistered solar is huge in the developing world. In the Philippines, basically no one tells the utility they installed solar, because the net metering application is so expensive, comes with tons of red tape (read as opportunities for government officials to extract bribes), and only gives you billing credits anyway. So people just install batteries and automatic transfer switches. Some even disconnect from the grid completely, or never connect in the first place because it was too expensive to get the line installed. Automatic transfer to a generator is now very simple, and with LPG generators, extremely clean and low maintenance.

As I understand it, this is very common across much of the developing world now. So the tracking of how much solar energy there is in the world is almost certainly a lower bound on the reality.

[–] alex_duf 3 days ago
Jenny Chase is a renewable forecaster for BNEF (Bloomber new energy finance), and the way she works around that is by looking at China's solar panel export rather than what's reported in each country.

If you're not following her, she's often sharing really interesting stuff.

[–] ZeroGravitas 2 days ago
She just did her yearly recap of the market:

https://bsky.app/profile/solarchase.bsky.social/post/3mxjkhs...

[–] toomuchtodo 2 days ago
Her book is excellent, I highly recommend it. I purchased it before I began investing in and contributing time and effort to utility solar projects.

Solar Power Finance Without the Jargon2nd Edition https://doi.org/10.1142/q0437 January 2024, Jenny Chase (BloombergNEF, Switzerland)

(no affiliation, I just like the book)

[–] fallingbananna 3 days ago
Even in the developed world, you don't need to register solar instalation as long as you don't plan to plug it into the general network, right?

If you have your own circuit with solar and battery and devices disconnected from the rest of the grid, then there is nothing to register, right?

[–] lompad 2 days ago
For germany:

For balcony panels you only have to do a very small registration, but no large bureaucratic process or getting a permit.

For larger ones you still must get a permit for a very simple reason: even if you don't get your power into the general network, you still affect it by using less, which might cause issues with grid stability.

We have so much power on sunny days now that we can barely deal with it. Which in turn occasionally even causes power prices to go negative - you can get paid for drawing power.

[–] MakersF 2 days ago
Dealing with power from solar panels is easy: you disconnect them (curtailment). So it's not a problem.

Have you ever wondered how is it possible that the price goes negative? Why would someone pay you to use the energy they produce? Logically, the price shouldn't go below 0 (*) . The reason is that the government gives incentives for each kWh produ ed. So if they pay you 0.10€/kWh, you'll be happy to pay people up to 0.09€/kWh as long as you can keep producing, since your marginal cost is 0. Basically government incentives are producing this situation, paying people to produce electricity nobody wants. It's also the reason why production is far from consumption: the incentives never were designed to push to generate useful electrons, just electrons, even if they cannot be moved to where they are useful. We need to rework how incentives are provided, because this is ending up wasting a ton of public money!

(*) except for power stations were they cannot physically turn it off, but generally they wouldn't be able to produce enough energy to define the marginal price

[–] flakeoil 2 days ago
In that case the government should pay incentives when purchasing an electric car. That way the electricity being produced on sunny days can be stored and used when it is cloudy. Electric cars will also be spread out geographically, quite in line with solar panel installations so that solves for regional and network issues too. And as an added benefit we use less oil (less combustion cars) and less gas (we charge when it is sunny and not when we produce electricity with gas generators).

By using less oil and less gas we reduce CO2 emmissions, save money and are less dependent on other regions far away.

[–] netsharc 2 days ago
I wonder if the excess energy could be used to do things like run carbon capture (although I've read that this is very much a pipe dream, that it'll take several magnitudes more carbon capture facilities to counter what we're currently producing).

In a very tiny Canary Island, their battery is many many tonnes of water pumped uphill when they have windpower: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXhAj5BHdfM

[–] msby 2 days ago
Pumped-storage hydroelectricity is done in the alps (at least in Austria as well)
[–] gniv 2 days ago
Same in France. You also sign that whatever excess you're producing goes to the grid for free.
[–] holgerschurig 2 days ago
> you still affect it by using less, which might cause issues with grid stability

That is weird and IMHO totally wrong. And I'm living in Germany. Anyone here can e.g. create an isolated network, without any permission. The local electricity provider etc doesn't care. All they care however that they remove the counter and the main circuit breaker at their end, to really isolate your house from the rest.

[–] lompad 1 day ago
Maybe I phrased it badly, the scenario I have in mind is this:

you have a house, taking power from the grid. Then you want to become more self-sufficient and add solar, but don't want to sell to the grid, just for yourself. If the solar installation and its circuit is not _fully_ separate from the one connected to the grid you have to get a permit even if it's a "Nulleinspeiseanlage".

Yes, technically you could make everything completely separate, then it would be fine. But I haven't seen that in the wild a single time so far.

[–] zarzavat 2 days ago
This doesn’t make any sense. You also use less electricity if you switch off your devices. I think Germans just have a fetish for permits.
[–] leonidasrup 2 days ago
Adherence to regulations is one of the reasons why the German grid is so reliable.

The Germans manage their electric grid very well, the last major electric blackout in Germany was in 2006. (More than 15 million clients of the Union for the Co-ordination of Transmission of Electricity (UCTE) did not have access to electricity for about two hours on this date.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_European_blackout

On the other hand electric grids in Philippines are quite unreliable and economic losses caused by blackouts are quite high:

" That is a brutal reminder that every blackout doesn’t just kill the lights; it sets the nation’s money, productivity, and economic progress on fire. " https://mb.com.ph/2026/10/26/blackouts-heavy-price-tag-is-ga...

[–] lompad 2 days ago
Regarding reliability: Absolutely. I honestly didn't experience a major blackout in my entire life in germany. I always forget just how big of a problem that still is for many countries and areas.
[–] richjdsmith 2 days ago
I grew up in Canada and realized I had no memory of a grid blackout (or even brownout for that matter). Google tells me the last time Canada saw a blackout event was in 2003, affecting only one province (not the one I live in), and it lasted for only 7 hours for most people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_blackout_of_2003

I had never really considered how stable our grid is until now. I've experienced blackouts in other countries while traveling/living abroad, but Canada has a remarkably well managed grid.

[–] tharkun__ 2 days ago
Canada is large. Your local experience may not match everyone's lived experience. And yes, I'm not in but very close to one of the major Canadian cities, not in the actual boonies.

Also you may not care for Ontario and Quebec but: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Canada_ice_storm Much more recently.

I can count more years where I've used the generator multiple times a year than years where I did not have to use the generator. Given we don't have automatic whole house failover and I have to actually bring it out, fill it, plug a bunch of things into extension cables we run all over the house etc. we only do it for "major" ones i.e. when it's been out for some time and the outage map shows that "it's not just us". And I'm in a part of our town that usually gets the least amount of power outages and is usually the first to get reconnected as well when it does. And our neighbors that do have automatic failovers are what I count as "actually a power outage". That happens even more often. Like the times when I'm like "OK if this goes one more minute I'm gonna 'fold' and go take out the generator". And then it comes back on after half an hour.

This usually happens around the start and end of winter nowadays meaning during storms and especially sleet/ice storms that coat the lines and trees. I.e. I need to remember to fill up the jerry cans soon actually, thanks for the reminder.

Now, vs. say what is being reported of the Philippines there this is still way more reliable but its nowhere near the reliability of what is cited about Germany.

[–] gnabgib 2 days ago
That's an extraordinary experience. That's not everyone's lived experience. Interior BC, or Northern Ontario?

Zero blackouts for me (obviously a different part, but for a while in the one referenced by GP), except a transformer explosion (for me - a very real total lack of power for 7 days, but not the city, province, or Canada). A Canada blackout is impossible right now (we have several separate networks with interties, and each individual network has failsafes preventing an outage spreading). Although, a series of cascading bad decisions could work.. I guess.. if you like that sort of thing.

[–] lompad 2 days ago
On grid-scale this very much has an influence. Obviously not on individual scale. Is the influence big enough to warrant needing permits? Not sure, but I certainly see the problem.

In many areas solar panels get turned of by grid operators remotely for many hours on sunny days. In an area in the south I worked in around 50-70% of the produced power of larger installations (>30kwp) is essentially thrown away because the grid simply doesn't have enough capacity.

[–] zarzavat 2 days ago
Every day people go to work and turn off their electrical devices. Switching your home to off-grid solar + batteries is just like going to work and not coming back. The grid can handle it.

If many houses install off-grid solar, it's still not going to have a negative effect on the grid because the change is spread out over time.

It does mean that less generating capacity is needed over the long term, but decision makers can just get that data directly from the grid. I don't see what extra information the permit is adding.

[–] holgerschurig 2 days ago
Nah, the OP just posted some false facts.

And Germany is #4 regarding grid stability (measured in SAIDI) in Europe. There are only some tiny and small countries better than the german grid, and no large industrial country. And, btw, Europe has a WAY higher grid stability than the Americas.

Why is that important? Years ago, I had weekly telcos with a customer in Tucson, Arizona. And more often than not we didn't had one: they had no power over there. So the shabby quality of the public grid influenced in a bad way their economy. Businesses simply couldn't talk and plan during that period. Probably also not produce.

Having a top-notch grid is IMHO a basis for a successful economy.

(And fun thing: the german grid is so good ALSO because of our neighbors. We're all interconnected. In Germany, we don't really have the landscape for massive water pump storage power plants. But when we have excess electricity, the ones in Austria and Switzerland are using "our" power. And we need the power, we get "their" power back. Or France ... in the summer, they now routinely have to power down their nuclear plants due to cooling issues. But in France ... no one notices. We all help each other. In year 53% of the french atomic power was "out" due to climate change and regular maintenance. And it all worked nethertheless. As it should be!)

[–] nuancebydefault 2 days ago
"negative price" is a bit misleading. It means you get a discount on monthly bill when consuming excess power (in fact preventing that grid voltage gets too high). It does not mean paying for producing excess. There's an easy outlet for excess so no need to scare people off installing/producing more energy.
[–] gosub100 2 days ago
It could be for fire code compliance. Not everyone knows that too much current through a small wire creates heat.
[–] leonidasrup 2 days ago
Every wire, small or large, has a maximum current which can safely pass through. Circuit breakers are used prevent overloading of power lines and potential fire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_breaker

[–] gosub100 2 days ago
That's patronizing. My point is that electrical code requires the use of safety devices (breakers are only one). Idiots plugging wires together without oversight cause fires.
[–] michaelbuckbee 3 days ago
Yeah, if you're seen the recent rise in "balcony solar" it's more or less this.

People putting a couple panels up on their patio or whatever and having it charge one of those cooler sized batteries that they then run a few of their devices off of.

I've been thinking about a similar situation for my shed as I'd realized that the entire system would be cheaper than getting a line trenched to it.

[–] nsbk 3 days ago
Im running such system in sunny Valencia and with just two panels I’ve cut my monthly spend in half.

The system is quite smart, it charges the battery up from the grid when electricity is cheap and discharges during peak hours. Legally it’s limited to 800W, but you can set it up to a much higher output.

[–] tbdenney 2 days ago
May I ask what kind of system you are using? I am also in Valencia and would like to deploy a balcony panel kit but as a solar noob I'm a bit overwhelmed by all the options.
[–] nsbk 2 days ago
Definitely! I'm using a Zendure SolarFlow 800 Pro [0] and two solar panels. That unit is the battery and micro inverter all in one. It just plugs into one of your home outlets. I also installed a Shelly power meter [1] that the SolarFlow can talk to and learn about your usage trends, and also prevent it from feeding power back to the grid if you want it to.

The SolarFlow 800 Pro goes for around 500 euros, and good quality solar panels for ~120 each. ~100 for the power meter and ~70 for the brackets to install the panels on. Oh and maybe ~40 for cables.

You can also use the battery as a massive power bank with a 240V outlet on camping trips xD

[0] https://zendure.com/products/solarflow-800-pro [1] https://shellyspain.com/shelly-pro-em-50.html

[–] w3ll_w3ll_w3ll 3 days ago
In Italy you don't need to declare to the utility a balcony solar system if you are under 350W, even if you conenct it to your own line.

The inverter is smart enough to disconnect from your line if you are not consuming energy, so there is no risk of sending the power back to the distribution line.

[–] tialaramex 3 days ago
> The inverter is smart enough to disconnect from your line if you are not consuming energy, so there is no risk of sending the power back to the distribution line.

I expect what you're talking about is anti-islanding and so it's not interested in what you're consuming locally.

The anti-islanding works by detecting whether it can make a noticeable change to the constant 50Hz (or 60Hz depending on country) AC waveform, if it can that's an artificial waveform made by itself or similar devices in the neighbourhood and so the anti-islanding protection stops delivering power. But if when you try to change the waveform it won't budge, that's because there's say 10GW of much beefier power sources out there keeping it the same shape it always was, so it's OK to generate electricity.

[–] linsomniac 2 days ago
FWIW: This is NOT what "balcony solar" is. See my top level comment clarifying it.
[–] nsbk 2 days ago
Well, it's solar and sits in my balcony sooo...

Just kidding, I know what you mean. I actually started with true balcony solar and evolved into the battery+inverter setup and couldn't be happier

[–] throwawayffffas 2 days ago
I don't know what you have to do in terms of letting the grid know. But local authorities have stringent regulations about installation and almost definitely require permits and installation or inspection from vetted electricians.
[–] bluGill 2 days ago
Some of the local regulation is a good thing - ensure the firefighters don't get hurt if your house starts on fire. They also want to make sure a wind storm won't send panels flying through your neighbors house.

However other regulations are just corruption and increase prices.

[–] elif 2 days ago
In the developed world you need lots of expensive batteries and a massive array to make that work. Unless you are like going without heating and cooling, you are looking at mid five figures to six figures in equipment alone.

You also need to meet NEC for all the wiring and if you put any on your roof, it will have to be approved by the building inspector.

Lastly, for firefighter safety you also need to have functioning and clearly accessible and labeled emergency shutoff inspected and approved.

To be honest upgrading the meter and applying for net metering was maybe 5% of the red tape hassle for my install.

[–] xedrac 2 days ago
You can get a 32kwh battery for about $3500. 12kw in solar panels is about $2500. And an inverter is a couple thousand. Throw in since mounting equipment and wiring, and a big system that can power a 4000 sqft home can be had for around $10k. If you want it truly off grid, you'll want a bigger battery and more panels to make it through consecutive cloudy days.
[–] elif 2 days ago
You'd have to send me the link but you are possibly comparison shopping scams. Are these alibaba or eBay listings maybe?

To have a battery that truly powers a whole house circuit breaker and not just one flakey ambiguous amperage draw rating collection of power strips you're looking at significantly more. And it's not just for cloudy days. You'd have to size your array for the winter solstice to not be constantly running a deficit out of summer.

Please correct me where I'm wrong with your actual lived experience, but ive yet to encounter much of that, mostly just "I googled this thing and found something claiming to be a thing I think might work"

[–] xedrac 1 day ago
I have two Yixiang power 16kwh wallmount batteries ($2200 each). The 32kwh battery is $3699. They work remarkably well and have EVE LFP cells and a JK bms. They are not UL listed, so keep that in mind. My system uses a more expensive SolArk 18k inverter, and these two batteries easily power my whole house through the night, even this time of year. It's not enough to be off grid 100% of the time, but where I live, it's probably close to 80% of the time.
[–] elif 1 day ago
Ya that sounds believable except the product you claim to have doesn't seem to exist

https://yixiangpower.com/collections/us-stock

[–] xedrac 14 hours ago
Yes it does. It's the "51.2V Vertical Battery Pack" with the 314 Ah EVE cells. I have two of them connected in parallel, communicating with my Sol-Ark 18k inverter via a standard Pylontech protocol for closed-loop communication. Maybe I confused you by describing it as a "wall mount"? The vertical batteries are very often wall mounted. I should have just said "vertical" instead. Anyway, they have been fantastic batteries. Two in parallel can discharge roughly 19kW of power continuously, which is more than enough to power all of the big loads in my home at the same time. The only downside of the batteries is you have to configure the JK BMS yourself. But there's a lot of community resources for that: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1szaRxYzBHxwairtpCBBF...
[–] esperent 3 days ago
You don't need to of course but in many countries there's grants to purchase in the first place and then you can sell excess back to the grid, so it would be rather pointless not to.

My sister got it installed, about €15k worth, of which about a third was covered by grants and she's been selling enough back to the grid that she doesn't pay much bill at all for about 6 months of the year.

Unless she was some kind of off the grid absolutist, why wouldn't she have registered?

[–] ozim 2 days ago
Well no, I don’t think you can install anything that generates power without registering.

I remember in past people would make small wind turbines for their own use and would get fined in Europe. Because they expect you to sell the electricity and then buy it back - like you can’t use it directly as far as I remember, without paying taxes and stuff.

[–] leonidasrup 2 days ago
The regulations are different from country to country and also have changed a lot in past few years. For example the current situation in Germany is:

"Balcony solar power systems are generally permitted up to a capacity of 800 watts, with this limit referring to the maximum inverter output. Consumers must register their systems in the Federal Network Agency's market master data register. This registration is important to maintain an overview of installed solar energy and to ensure compliance with legal requirements."

" In many EU countries, balcony power plants are already permitted with higher power limits. Countries like the Netherlands , France , and Italy allow balcony power plants with a capacity of up to 2000 watts or even more. These countries have recognized that the integration of mini-PV systems plays a crucial role in achieving their climate goals. The Netherlands, in particular, actively promotes balcony power plants through tax breaks and financial incentives.

Another example is Austria , where the power limits are less strict, and systems with up to 800 watts per module are permitted. Consumers can install multiple modules, each with up to 800 watts. The total output of the solar system is therefore not as strictly limited as in Germany. For example, two 800-watt modules could be used, resulting in a potential total output of 1600 watts . In combination with a suitable inverter, more electricity could be used or fed into the grid. Here, too, simplified registration procedures and regional subsidies support the use of solar power. "

https://www.moe-balkonkraftwerk.de/en/blogs/news/balkonkraft...

[–] rsynnott 2 days ago
You've misremembered/misunderstood this, I think. You can certainly use self-generated electricity directly, pretty much everywhere. In many places you will need some sort of permit/inspection if you're self-generating and connected to the grid, though, because if done incorrectly that's potentially dangerous (in particular, in a power cut either you need to self-isolate or switch off your self-generation, because otherwise lines will unexpectedly have current.)
[–] modo_mario 2 days ago
Wrong. It's pretty much mandatory here and in much of Europe.

I disagree with it and a lot of other stuff but yeah...

[–] eitally 2 days ago
Even in California it's legal to install non-grid-tied rooftop solar. It requires permitting but does not require an interconnect agreement from the grid electrical utility. We're "remodeling" our house in San Jose currently and the resulting property (includes new ADU) will have 1) old panels (NEM2) grid tied for main house, 2) new panels battery tied for main house & EV charging, 3) new panels (NEM3) grid tied for AGU. PG&E does not care about the second item, provided they are installed per code.
[–] WillAdams 2 days ago
An Uncle of mine, who paid to have electric run up to his mountaintop home at the insistence of his wife would have loved that sort of self-sufficient install --- he always complained that after running that wire he suddenly had neighbors, when before, there weren't any.
[–] hunglee2 3 days ago
decentralised energy generation is going to be the way developing economies leap over more advanced ones. Same thing happening in South Africa, can't rely on the national grid, so everyone installs solar, batteries and diesel generators for backup. The outcome is a much more resilient grid energy system. Future is literally bright
[–] pyrale 3 days ago
> decentralised energy generation is going to be the way developing economies leap over more advanced ones.

Good luck with running industries on decentralized energy production. That's how things started during the industrial revolution, and the grid was a net upgrade. Reason for that is building a factory is much cheaper when you don't need to also build the adjoined power plant.

Decentralized production works well with residential or low consumption tertiary sector, but not much else. Even then, a working grid will have better quality of service and economies of scale on equipment. The issue with developing countries is that their grid typically is dysfunctional.

> The outcome is a much more resilient grid energy system.

That claim depends a lot on the threat model you're looking at. If your goal is to still have some energy under coordinated attack, sure. If your goal is to maximmize uptime for critical services, not so much. Backup generators, inverters, etc. typically have a higher rate of failure than a well-performing grid.

[–] pfdietz 3 days ago
I think there's a good chance we will actually see decentralization of industry due to very cheap solar. We may also see a movement of industry to sunny locations. This is bad news for northern Europe, and perhaps for all of Europe.

The scale will be set by how large long term storage has to be, which could be as small as 100s of kW. The future grid might be a constellation of loosely connected microgrids. This will do wonders for resilience.

[–] SecretDreams 2 days ago
Yes, all of industry will move to Africa, at great expense, to get the free solar.

Energy input is just one portion of a businesses expenses.. even if this business was fully dark (all robots, since you're not going to get all your HQP to move to Africa), you still would like to have that business somewhat interconnected to the supply chain.

Many businesses won't exist long enough to hit the ROI needed to uproot to move to someplace extra sunny and to pay for the full install of the power required to be fully off grid.

[–] pfdietz 2 days ago
Oh European colonial mindset, don't ever change.
[–] gdcbe 3 days ago
Seems not to be only an issue in the development world though.

At least in Belgium there’s also a lot of unregistered solar panels to the point that the energy regulator is using satellite imagery to catch and find them…

[–] CalRobert 3 days ago
Why?
[–] 3D30497420 3 days ago
> Without declaration, there is not only a risk of grid overload and regular shutdowns of inverters, but technicians are also exposed to real danger during their interventions. An undeclared installation can cause serious electrical risks if technicians do not have the necessary information to work safely.

https://www.brussels.be/how-report-solar-panels-brussels

I have no idea how serious these reasons actually are. It seems registration is free, though you do need to have a digital meter, which may incur extra costs. The system is apparently designed to encourage self-usage rather than feeding back to the grid.

I don't really know the benefit of not registering. To register you may need an inspection, which could be a pain and cost some money. But if you've spent a bunch of money on a system... why not do the seemingly small extra steps?

[–] pyrale 3 days ago
> I have no idea how serious these reasons actually are.

Basically, the grid was built with the assumption that plants produce power, and that households only consume it. That means opening a breaker between the transport grid and the distribution lines should allow to safely work on the consumer-bound side.

That assumption no longer works if consumers energize the network, and while I assume workers have safety guidelines to check the line before starting work, there is still a risk.

Fixing this issue would require new remotely-operated breakers to be installed, which is costly, and it's hard to justify installing them proactively just in case.

[–] bluGill 2 days ago
Linemen have long be trained that a wire is either live or they have personally shorted it to ground. Even before solar, there are a lot of people with generators who didn't disconnect correctly.
[–] pixl97 2 days ago
When things like power lines fall down the system will detect and disconnect that portion of the grid, one problem with things like personal solar generation is you can keep feeding power to the fault and melt things down.
[–] bluGill 2 days ago
While possible, the reality is in almost all cases your home system will shut itself down from overload first.
[–] grumbelbart2 2 days ago
> Fixing this issue would require new remotely-operated breakers to be installed, which is costly, and it's hard to justify installing them proactively just in case.

No, the fix for this issue is that the inverter of your local solar installation checks if the grid delivers a 50 or 60 Hz waveform, and breaks if it does not. This is pretty much the standard in any installation today, and it's mandatory whether you declare your installation or not.

Side note, there is recently a push to vary the allowed deviation from 50/60 Hz a bit for each installation. The risk is that if all installations stop delivering at, say 50.1 Hz, then if the grid exceeds that value for some reason, there would be a very sudden drop in supply since all solar installations shut off at the same time.

[–] pyrale 2 days ago
> No, the fix for this issue is that the inverter of your local solar installation checks if the grid delivers a 50 or 60 Hz waveform, and breaks if it does not.

It's hard to apply regulation to people who already decided to skip declaring their setup. If everything was done by the book, the stuff would be declared.

[–] rsynnott 2 days ago
Generally the fix is to either have the inverter shut down if the grid fails, or automatically isolate the premises if the grid fails.
[–] cestith 2 days ago
Isolation via a transfer switch or breaker lockouts is the right solution. If the grid fails and your power inverter shuts down, your house is without AC power.
[–] pjc50 3 days ago
Similarly the UK requires a "g98" notification for all solar installation, including balcony. But it's just a web form and free.

I have been wondering if there is a smart way to make use of "island" solar at home, but not thought of one other than heating assist (pipe tape heater).

[–] ben_w 3 days ago
I picked up one of these because of how cheap it is; can charge anything with a USB port, laptops, phones, torches, etc.

- https://www.action.com/de-de/p/3222881/re-load-solarmodul/

- https://www.action.com/de-de/p/3222880/re-load-faltbares-sol...

Despite the low capacity, given what can be done with a phone and a laptop, this is still potentially useful.

[–] holgerschurig 2 days ago
It happens that people need in planning things want to have numbers.

So for example a high voltage power line is planned to be installed between point A and B. Now, probably some land has to be bought. But maybe not everyone sells land. So maybe land is seized, for the good of all. But ... is it really for the good of alL? The government MUST know beyond a doubt it that line is really worthwhile for the entirety. They need hard planning numbers.

There are numerous scenarios available where a government --- or even private companies --- need dependable statistical numbers to do planning.

And that is e.g. the reason why in Germany businesses have to wire lots of data to a government statistical bureau. We all can then get the relevant statistics out of the 16 state and the one federal offices of statistics. Or (e.g in Germany) the "Bundesnetzagentur" uses it base decisions about the grid on it.

Or private people need to register (cost free, via web, at least in Germany) their balcony solar. Compared to what the businesses have to tell this is almost negligible. It only makes sense due to the sheer number of balcony solar installations.

[–] CalRobert 2 days ago
Thanks. My question was genuine since I thought most places didn’t require it for small (e.g. balcony) solar
[–] archerx 3 days ago
To fine them and make them pay continuous taxes of course!
[–] holgerschurig 2 days ago
Well, actually not. At least not in my country.

Governments have conflicting goals. You think "raise taxes" is the most important goal. But, believe it or not, some governments -- even conservative ones -- also have goals like "protect the envirnment".

In Germany for example, you are nominally required to register your balcony solar. Online, no fee. So it's easy. But .. there are no fines attached if you don't do it. And they don't ask for any taxes.

They are HAPPY that you do your local electricity power after Putin turned off gas export and it turned out that LPG import is way more costly (due to cooling and pressure, a lot of the stored energy is used for that during the transport/processing on that).

In Germany, there was even a process where the politics told the electrical engineers to not be so anal about electric security to make plug in of these devices into normal sockets a possibility. The VDE only wanted special sockets to be used. The politics said "Nope, too expensive for the normal people".

The idea that legislative and executive is only working AGAINST the people is invalid.

[–] nkmnz 3 days ago
I would guess that this is taken into account based on satellite data. Solar must have a direct line of sight to the sun, so it should be fairly easy to detect from the sky.
[–] jcattle 3 days ago
Kind of. Free satellite data starts at 10m resolution per pixel. You will not get a clear signal on small rooftop solar. Same for balcony solar or other near perpendicular installations.

At 10m the only thing you can reliably detect is large scale deployments. If you want to do better than that you need paid data which is prohibitively expensive at large scales.

[–] nkmnz 3 days ago
Current or most recent data is very expensive, indeed, but researchers as well as governments should have access to data that allows them to measure the rates of change across time and extrapolate them, no?
[–] jcattle 2 days ago
Not really in developing countries which the OP is talking about.

While most developed countries have aerial imaging campaigns on some recurrent schedule (NAIP in the US is on a rolling 3-year cycle), this is usually not the case in developing countries.

Quite a few never had any large scale aerial imaging campaigns and most do not have them on regular schedules.

[–] nkmnz 2 days ago
Thanks for explaining!
[–] isaachh 3 days ago
You can do it quite reliably from aerial imagery at ~7cm resolution or so. For urban areas (if you have access to the data) you can pull out the type of panel and its size and get a reasonably good estimate on power output.

Also doable maybe a bit less reliably with high res satellite (30cm res).

Depending on how remote the area the data can be a bit out of date (years even)

[–] sandworm101 2 days ago
>> Solar must have a direct line of sight to the sun

A popular misconception. Solar panels can generate significant power during overcast clouds (~15% of rated capacity). I have seen panels generate power in overcast conditions when they would otherwise lack any direct line to the sun (high latitude, winter, forest/mountains).

[–] ngruhn 3 days ago
can't you just track solar panel sales?
[–] SideburnsOfDoom 3 days ago
Pretty much, yes.

e.g. "Across the Caribbean, people have installed roughly twice as many solar panels as official statistics would suggest. ... China ... has exported far more panels to the Caribbean than have officially been installed."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/science/articles/caribbean-nation...

[–] nkmnz 3 days ago
In some countries, but not in others. Also, panels sold ≠ panels installed (as I can confirm by looking into my own garage...)
[–] m0llusk 3 days ago
That is false. Temperature moderation is an important issue and in hot locations solar efficiency may be maximized when trees provide partial shade.
[–] ErroneousBosh 3 days ago
This is precisely the setup I'm planning for my place up north. A few kW of solar, which ought to still kick out useful power even in winter - down south here at 56°N days are pretty short, and I'm about a degree or two further north up there - a couple of kW of wind turbine, and an LPG-powered genny just in case. This latter will be mounted on a trailer with a couple of large automotive tanks so I can just take it to the petrol station and fill it with the same pump as the dual-fuel car, because it's roughly half the price to buy autogas than bottled propane.
[–] pjc50 3 days ago
Greetings, fellow 56N resident - you may be interested in my seasonality stats from here in Edinburgh: https://flatline.org.uk/daystats.html
[–] ErroneousBosh 2 days ago
I'm a little further north than you, north of the Tay but not so far as Aberdeen. My solar panels down south here are also facing more-or-less southwest and I'm seeing similar figures.

Up north of course I've got the space to put my ground mounts wherever the hell I like, and sufficient power from them to run the welder so they can be any shape I like :-D But the weather in the wet and windy west isn't quite so conducive to solar.

[–] cman1444 3 days ago
A remarkably individualistic trend. You no longer need to rely on the central authority for your electric utility.
[–] raverbashing 3 days ago
Well, yeah

If the power company is going to annoy me (too much) for that, then tough shyt when they need my battery to compensate for peak hours

[–] cucumber3732842 2 days ago
>If the power company is going to annoy me (too much) for that, then tough shyt when they need my battery to compensate for peak hours

Ha! They won't even consult you.

What they'll do is they'll fund useful idiot do-gooder advocacy groups and academia and get them to produce a bunch of whining and papers about how the runoff from your panels is bad for some endangered slug or maybe it'll be some supply chain mumbo jumbo about not buying lithium from sources that might fund terrorists or something. In any case, they'll use that as plausible deniability to get some federal rules tweaked and of course your state (because it loves grant money) already has a law saying that municipalities must enforce whatever the fed recommendations are.....blah...blah...blah...several layers of regulatory cause and effect later you will be disallowed from putting up panels without permits which won't be issued unless you bend over and take a bunch of costs that make it a complete non starter.... or unless you connect to the grid.

But don't worry, maybe if your panels and battery are small and useless enough you'll qualify for some tiny homeowner exemption like how you don't need a building permit for a shed so long as it's too small to be useful. Gotta shield the useful idiots from the brunt of the regulatory capture lest they learn how they system works and cease to go to bat for it or starts demanding more than whatever scant shred of a benefit they get out of the whole rotten thing.

Sorry not sorry for being jaded. I work in the sausage factory so I know how it's made.