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points by plugger 2 days ago | 0 comments
"Work to live, don't live to work". When you're on your deathbed work won't sit there with you and hold your hand. People are critical, not buildings or computers or networks. If you do choose to go down the path of overwork for recognition (as I did in my early 20s to earn a business visa) set strict guidelines around it and ensure you benefit as much as your employer. No one will manage your own work life balance better than you.
[–] watwut 2 days ago
Imo, you dont even have to wait for deathbed. I have seen this exact philosophy on developer/tech/enterpreneur forums for years.

The same exact forums are super engaged with "loneliness epidemic we are all lonely" topic, where everyone other person describes difficulty in that area. Well, yeah, if you work all the time, you wont have real friends. And yeah, if all you focus on is competition, all you will have are competitors and frenemies. And no, friends will not magically pop out of nothing the moment you wish them to.

"Everyone who does not spend whole weekends and evenings coding/vibing/working/writing is lazy. Also it is society fault that I do not have friends and cant find a partner".

[–] cladopa 2 days ago
Imho when talking about women giving them too much time and attention is a bad idea. They don't value what is free and abundant.

When I was young and poor(but smart, beautiful and tall) I gave some women I was interested on too much time and attention and it looked like they were not interested t all. The women I gave the less attention (that I was not that interested in) usually got deeply in love with me and I had great time with them.

I am European, it is different from living in the US or Asia(I have also lived there). In the US you have way more opportunities professionally but people live isolated from each other. They don't have so many common spaces like in Europe.

Later when I got more money and status the women that ignored me came after me. They only valued my time and attention after it was zero. When I ignored them as I was genuinely busy they got in love as well.

I also made friends around the world easily and probably the best reason is because I already had friends and I did not need new ones.

The best way to make friends and lovers is not to need them at all. You make friends or lover when you don't try to make friends and people just have a great time with you.

So beware about thinking about idealistic ideas about life that have been never tested. There are things about humans that were decided when we were living in tribes.

[–] RugnirViking 2 days ago
I want to offer a counterpoint to the above. I think that for some people in some circumstance it is true, but you can absolutely have fulfilling relationships with people you spend a lot of time and attention on, both friends and romantic partners. I think a lot of people get stuck in the classic avoidant + anxious attachment styles, where people chase what they can't have, but thats not everyone.

I'm not sure how much I actually agree with attachment style theory, but I do observe the pattern parent points out in some people, that they chase people who are distant or unavailable. But its often unhealthy for both people

[–] 233mhz 1 day ago
Talking about women like you're a 14 year old incel is not a good thing fyi
[–] watwut 1 day ago
No, women are not machines where you put time in and affection falls out. And yes, women who have own lives do value ability to keep those lives after having partner. And yes, being clingy or needy (not saying you was but in general) is offputting.

All of these go vice versa too - not many men want women to be constantly by their hip. Too much attention from a woman is offputting to men too.

And still, if you work 60 hours a week and spend weekends coding/working/writing, you will break up, divorce or never find the partner in the first place. Because no woman will miraculously suddenly appear in your bed room. Which is what I was talking about.

[–] kakacik 1 day ago
A sad perspective, maybe rooted in good set of experiences, but it reeks of being sour, closed in injured person who is potentially not so mature emotionally. Good relationships take serious effort to create and sustain, approach of 'I don't need any of this' won't get you far with any decent folks. Maybe you overload the term 'friend' a bit.

I hope being wrong for your sake, but I've met such folks, brilliant in 1 very narrow direction but socials are lacking pretty badly.

Just 1 nitpick - women who care about you suddenly once you have some wealth and/or show off you have are not good partners, not even short term. Its obvious common knowledge yet when looking around its surprisingly often ignored.

Parent's claim are as old as human civilization, we are still just a bit better apes and what he wrote is still valid for 100% of the humans. It doesn't mean 100% will admit it, far from it.

[–] Ar-Curunir 1 day ago
What is this incelspeak
[–] plastic-enjoyer 2 days ago
> Everyone who does not spend whole weekends and evenings coding/vibing/working/writing is lazy. Also it is society fault that I do not have friends and cant find a partner

I think the idea is that devs find meaning in "the mission". You grind for a higher goal, not just a paycheck. That works for some places, like Musk's companies or academic research, where people actually believe in what they're building. But most software engineers are just cogs building the next app to make ads more efficient. The grindset just makes them better-oiled cogs until they burn out.

[–] watwut 1 day ago
> That works for some places, like Musk's companies

Those people are literally cogs in the machine. They dont do anything to make the world better, they are closer to what Enron guys were - people locked in self reinforcing system that is slowly changing them.

[–] Imustaskforhelp 2 days ago
One thing which has helped me is to genuinely wish good for others for the sake of it and helping them out in that.

Note: I worry if I am virtue-signalling or larping here because there are immense flaws and inconsistencies within me. I sometimes feel like there are just these thoughts that come in me but acting on them (consistently) is hard. Not too much time has passed for me to comment if it has become part of my identity or not but commenting it can help solidify it further and help others get to know me (which feels my need to be understood) or more importantly, perhaps can help a single person out there.

When otherwise I would think of competition and stop, I now DO try to speak the thing out loud which can help the other person. We all have our biases and if I as a person can help see the other bias and try to help them provided I try to not cross boundary or be pushy but just for the sake of helping. Then yeah, it is good.

Paraphrasing my brother here: "You can genuinely change people's (friends) lives within college. It's genuinely so powerful"

Also, I see many spirits of kindness from people of all walks of life and the world has been aside from a few occassions still a kind place to me in terms of giving me chances. It's cruel and kind at the same time but it's my world and I can try to make it a little better for my friends.

In that sense, "The world is a generous place", as Minhyong Kim said[0]

I sincerely believe that "How to measure your life" is a great book which has a piece of logical advice which did change my interpretation of it (so much so that I wrote the entire page and pasted it on my front desk). I highly recommend reading that book [Along with How to win friends and influence people and Deep work, I wish to read em all and moreso act on them now]

Here's what the page said:

I genuinely believe that relationships with family and friends are one of the greatest sources of happiness in life. It sounds simple but like any important investment, these relationships need constant attention and care (...)

You'll be tempted to invest your resources elsewhere but if you don't nurture these relationships, they won't be there to support you in hardships or as one of the most important sources of happiness in your life.

My interpretation: Balance is necessary and understand the important of family and friends as the society around us is underweighing the genuine importance of it and as the culture around it is focused on not paying importance to it (and rewarding that behaviour).

Appreciate your family and friends and don't take for granted.

Take an Action (Knowledge means fundamentally nothing if you don't act on it): Try to do something which can show the appreciation that you have for friends and family and show it within words and tell it to them.

If it can help you take some action, I have messaged two of my brothers while writing this comment appreciating them.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH_UM9TDJ-c&t=588s

[–] nicbou 2 days ago
I am still in touch with some college buddies. How hard you work seems disconnected from what results you get. Being good at networking, selling yourself and applying effort judiciously helps more.
[–] Kinrany 18 hours ago
Simpson's paradox?
[–] yodsanklai 1 day ago
> Work to live, don't live to work

This is a bit of a cliché. Many people have the option to stop working, they don't because they love what they do. How would that be less worth pursuing than other things? not everybody feel like spending their time on hobbies or family.

[–] Aurornis 1 day ago
> not everybody feel like spending their time on hobbies or family.

Most people don't pick one thing and put all of their time into it. They balance priorities.

You don't pick one and ignore the others.

Even the most family-minded people I know enjoy having something to work on outside of family time.

[–] yfw 1 day ago
And many who dont have the choice because of the increased cost of living?
[–] sapientiae3 1 day ago
I think it’s saying one is a means to an end, and the other is the end itself. We need work for so much more than money, and it is good. But work should never be the end.
[–] yodsanklai 1 day ago
> But work should never be the end.

Why not? if some people think that work is the most meaningful pursuit of their life, why not. I knew people like that, my dentist for instance, he was working all the time because that's what he liked to do.

Of course, not everybody has the luxury to have a fulfilling job, and some people work more than what they'd like. But saying things like that on your deathbed you'll be full of regrets because they worked too much is a bit naive.

[–] scratcheee 1 day ago
You’re not wrong, if someone is willing to let family, friends, hobbies, etc fall to the wayside and dedicate themselves to work above all else, that isn’t inherently wrong, and could be a satisfying life.

But do consider the implications. I’d argue that the compensation you need to seek changes. Working for others in such a context is throwing away the only autonomy you have (having discarded other avenues), so if work is your life, you really need to work for yourself, or at least own and control your working conditions to some extent. Otherwise you’re just a hamster in a wheel. Clearly money is of little value once you decide to forgo any real use of money. The only thing you can trade for your work is ownership of the product you produce.

[–] dominotw 1 day ago
> because they love what they do.

mostly inertia and dont know what to do with themselves because they never developed any other part of their personality.

[–] AdrianB1 1 day ago
The answer is also a bit of a cliche; the people who can stop working, and don't, have a different motivation than "work for paying the bills". They don't "work", they actively have fun doing what they like to do, with no financial pressure, they are living the dream.
[–] red-iron-pine 1 day ago
who loves being a trcuk driver? are you going to clock in on your off hours to be a process engineer and do requirements reviews?

shit even if you love coding that =/= working on other people's projects.

[–] himata4113 2 days ago
It's ultimately a choice, work hard and earn a lot so you can enjoy early retirement or grind out a balanced life until the day you die.

It's a balance of risk and reward, you might work hard and never get lucky enough to retire early, but more recently we've seen how a balanced life can backfire @ FAANG layoffs.

[–] ben_w 2 days ago
> It's ultimately a choice, work hard and earn a lot

"Don't work hard, work smart". Often there's an inverse relationship between how hard the work is and how well it pays. Picking crops is famously the worst. But even in software, the hardest work I did was a 10-day stretch of 10-hour days in one of the lowest paid positions I had: between my €1k-ish/month passive income and the imputed income due to no longer needing to pay rent, I get more sitting on my arse than that job paid.

Same applies to expenses. Software is (or was) one of the few forms of labour that lent themselves to remote work, and remote works allows people to lower what are often the two biggest expenses: rent, and transport.

[–] Dzugaru 2 days ago
Replace "work smart" with "be lucky"
[–] ben_w 1 day ago
Both. There's a lot of dumb luck in this world, and me being a software developer at just the right time was luck.

Working smart, living smart, also makes a huge difference. Every 83/month you save off your expenses (rent, more efficient transport, better utility deals) is the same as earning 1k/year more after tax. At lower income levels (but not the lowest because at the very lowest people don't have a choice), investing that over a lifetime turns "just about making ends meet" into "retire 4 years early".

[–] koolba 1 day ago
The smart man makes his own luck.

In some way ways, that’s what smart working does. Being at the right place, at the right time, because you were smart enough to realize you should hang around that place.

[–] fooqux 1 day ago
All one can do is try and stack the odds. I prefer to say that rather than "making your own luck".

You can equip rings of +1 to dice rolls but most of us don't get weighted dice.

Playing the odds is fine in poker if your pile of chips is big enough to ride out the bad dice rolls, but this doesn't always work in life. There are too many decisions where you're forced to go all in.

I do still largely agree with you, that our decisions influence our future options. But I feel many people who just say "we make our own luck" fail to realize just how much luck played a role in their lives. Survivorship bias and all that.

[–] himata4113 1 day ago
being smart is also being lucky, half the population is below average.
[–] prodent 1 day ago
that's not how averages work
[–] himata4113 1 day ago
no, but as with most statistics it is a bell curve which means that this generalization is generally okay.
[–] GeoAtreides 1 day ago
no, but that's how normal distributions work
[–] plastic-enjoyer 2 days ago
Have a balanced life, keep living costs low, have enough money... But maybe I'm just too European to understand American engineers
[–] himata4113 1 day ago
Indeed, even though I can afford quite a lot I keep my monthly expenses below a nice 1000. I have to expend mental effort to justify anything above that and it has helped me a lot when dealing with a sense of meaninglessness as lifestyle creep will simply lead you to chasing for more.

Best things in life are free, or at minimum, very cheap.

[–] braj0 1 day ago
"When you're on your deathbed work won't sit there with you and hold your hand."

Neither will my co-workers lol, but atleast work will buy me a comfier deathbed. Co-workers prob want me to die sooner so I drain less benefits.

[–] kakacik 1 day ago
Maybe, maybe not. For sure the time and energy spent getting it all, and then realizing you didn't enjoy life as much as you could just to acquire it is the real killer.

Nobody is arguing against just getting more money (well it gets philosophical at least) but how much you lose of your most precious item you have in this world to attain it and if its worth it.

Or to put it in other way, just check by far the biggest regret of many dying people. If you think you can behave the same but somehow avoid ending up in same situation well... good luck I guess, you'll need it.

[–] lnenad 2 days ago
Do you get satisfaction from your work? If yes, then that statement is irrelevant for you. If not then clock out at 5pm and do stuff that brings you joy and satisfaction.
[–] Rebuff5007 2 days ago
I think this is bad advice. "Does it bring you satisfaction" should not be the only factor for making decisions.

Even if you get plenty satisfaction from work, I think its important to invest in other parts of your life (family, health, hobbies).

[–] lnenad 1 day ago
I mean as with any other blanket statement it's not a single variable, right? But if I feel like my work is torture I'm not gonna give it extra time and effort. If I feel like I'm enjoying myself, then I'm not even looking at it like I'm doing anything extra. But I mean it's just my opinion.
[–] Frieren 2 days ago
That's a great argument to continue consuming drugs. It is not just what you get, you also need to take a look at what you miss.

Been satisfied with what you have is a good thing. But should not stop you of seeking better things.

[–] lnenad 1 day ago
Building software makes me happy. I understand lying in a cave with a PC for 80 years isn't smart and that's not what I'm suggesting (if your statement implies this). I'm also not saying this is a single variable that guides my decision making process around how I use my time (or how others should). But it's different to how I'd feel if I hated my job and some brogrammer on linkedin suggested grinding is the way to go as money = bit*es.